Further to: Resetting Earth's thermostat...ho, boy...

To Veronique, Press Relations AEI:  See below for what I sent to the LA Times today, it probably won't be published, but thought you'd enjoy!  Oh, I copied my blog and several internet groups on the note above the letter to the times...happy to expound, but somehow I doubt you'll be in touch...PLEASE DO SHARE WITH THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OR AT LEAST Mr. DeMuth (perhaps I figured his out?), THEY MIGHT FIND THIS ENLIGHTENING...

Hi Sam.  Your article fired me up (doesn't take much I suppose).  I have an Archaeology degree and have studied paleo weather and climate, amongst a great many other things.  I also worked for IBM for 15 years introducing NEW TECHNOLOGY to the marketplace, I know about disruptive tech (spears to PCs)!

Here are two suggestions IF THE AEI IS ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN SAVING THE PLANET INSTEAD OF SIMPLY OBTAINING RESEARCH MONEY: 

1.  No longer have corporations be persons before the law.  That COULD give us a fighting chance to have rationality actually drive activities that could help.

Doubt the AEI would give that much time on the agenda, since you are apologists for the staus quo, but one can hope.

2.  Change cost accounting to represent the TRUE COST of doing business.  Petroleum, for example, is priced based on extraction, refining, distribution and profit at each stage, but no where is the cost of the damage burning petroleum does to the environment.  Oil ought to be at least $100 per gallon (yeah, OIL not gasoline which would be much higher!) if the true cost of it's use were accounted for...seriously doubt the AEI would support such a relatively "minor" and easy to implement change however...

(Another suggestion is to have the definition of terrorism revert to the Pre-911 "Terrorism - criminal acts committed for political gain"...let police be responsible for terrorists, so we can gut the military budget and use that money to save ourselves...that's not going to happen either...!  Instead, based on what I know about Anthropology and our market economy:  Military budgets will increase to fight the threat of starving and water needy minions...food wars are inevitable, as the Pentagon's own study indicated back in 2004...the staus quo doesn't accept change easily...)

In reality:  humanity is dead man walking and no one wants to admit it...as you mention in your article, the effects have yet to be seen in any significant way (thanks to the natural buffering of several systems), and climate chaos will occur, even if we stop emitting CO2 yesterday, which didn't happen...so, people will continue their profligate waste and energy consumption, cajoled by corporate advertising and whatever else supports our current climatic chaotic economy!)

The COSTS to the economy to actually do things that would help are IMMATERIAL compared to the outcome if there are no people left...however, as you also mention, inertia will prevail and nothing will stop the inevitable grisly end.  (See 1 and 2 above to find ways to 'force' change...)

Having no children as a Personal Voluntary Decision is the only MORAL choice.

Bringing more people onto the planet means more will be around at the end.

To reduce the inevitable suffering of those around at the end, it is best that there are as few people as possible.

The only moral way to do that is if everyone stops having kids, voluntarily.

Sounds radical?  Perhaps. We live in radical times...70,000 years ago +/- there was ONE EXTENDED FAMILY OF HUMANS FROM WHOSE GENES WE ALL DESCEND.  Simply reducing our population will not work, since our entire human culture is based on overcoming nature.  I don't consider us a "cancer" on the planet, although some do...we're more like KUDZU or ballast mussels, an "alien invader specie" in almost all ecosystems...

If you can, please do show me ONE thing that gives you hope for the (long term, say 250 years) future of humanity on the planet...I'll be surprised and shocked...China is now relaxing the one child rules for those affected by the earthquake...and that was the ONLY policy on the planet (not good, since not voluntary) that even attempted to slow population growth...

As we Volunteers in the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement like to say:  "Live Long and Die Off!"

--------------------

Here's an attempt to justify BIG BUCKS to "Study...While Rome Burns"!

I'll just scratch the surface on the effect of a reduction in Solar albedo, like, how will plankton react to not having as much sunlight at some depth...I copied the author of the article on this note, he really ought to check out www.vhemt.org.  And, he really ought to know better than to hawk hogwash...but, as I point out, he's human, and wants MONEY to study stuff...Let's hope he's childfree!

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-thernstrom23-2008jun23,0,5199358.story

My letter to the LA Times editors:

Samuel Thernstrom wrote:

"There are two concerns about geo-engineering".  How about 1000 concerns?  "Global Warming" is one symptom of Human Caused Climate Chaos.  Treating "warming" alone ignores the chemistry of the systems that we continue to disrupt.

He proposes another "disruptive technology", a very human response.  Technology evolved alongside our biological selves to overwhelm nature since there have been humans on the planet.  For example, Innuit people didn't evolve in the Arctic, they used their culture and technology to thrive there!

As he suggests, technology is ruining nature, but Mr. Thernstrom seems to believe that we can RUN nature, if we just use a little more technology...The "elephant in the room" is too many people.  I have none, neither should you.

--
Cheers,

Frish

Resetting Earth's thermostat

Samuel Thernstrom wrote:

"There are two concerns about geo-engineering".  How about 1000 concerns?  "Global Warming" is one symptom of Human Caused Climate Chaos.  Treating "warming" alone ignores the chemistry of the systems that we continue to disrupt.

 

He proposes another "disruptive technology", a very human response.  Technology evolved alongside our biological selves to overwhelm nature since there have been humans on the planet.  For example, Innuit people didn't evolve in the Arctic, they used their culture and technology to thrive there!

 

As he suggests, technology is ruining nature, but Mr. Thernstrom seems to believe that we can RUN nature, if we just use a little more technology...The "elephant in the room" is too many people.  I have none, neither should you.
--

Regards the flooding in the American Midwest...

Why is it flooding?

 

It is raining more than the historical average, a result of global warming (according to a report from the WHITE HOUSE, not a souce you'd expect to be using that explanation!).  Water is the slave of gravity, the river is the lowest point to flow to, and it filled up!

 

One reason it filled UP is that it is confined by levees and can't simply flow WIDER when there is flood, it flows HIGHER...therefore, the flood is causing extensive economic damage because LEVEES are FAILING (partly due to the higher pressure they experience when the water is higher...it seeps in more easily!)

 

Here's HUMAN technology at it's finest and a great example of the "Law of Unintended Consequences"...

 

We decided that the river needed to be "controlled" (so property owners nearby would not be flooded every year, and their plot wouldn't be under the river itself over the course of time and farmers could predict when to plant and not worry about flooding, and the river would have a "channel" for freight traffic that is predictable and dredgeable, etc. etc. etc. etc.)

We kept it from meandering with levees, which did control the flow...for a time.

We built cities nearby, below the level of the river, since we were protected by the levees.

We increased CO2 levels, and that caused more rain.
Water, the slave of gravity, seeped through the levees, they failed, and all those nice cities went down the toilet, so to speak. 

(and more rain is falling, and more cities are at risk, and summer hasn't even started!)

 

It would be compelling, as a "B" movie, if it wasn't so sad, as Reality...

 

The reports on TV include the title "Fighting the Flood"...a fascinating perspective - HUMANS MUST FIGHT NATURE, even though we caused the flooding in the first place.

 

That is exactly what Humans have done since there have been humans, we use our culture to FIGHT nature!

 

Just another reason not to have kids...since it is fairly obvious that one cannot trust decisions humans make regarding "controlling nature" with technological "fixes" to problems that maybe weren't problems to begin with.

 

Greed, and laws greedy people created to protect their "private property" at public cost, appears to be the rule instead of the exception. 

 

By the way, Sacramento California and environs have levees too.  http://www.safca.org/floodrisk/index.html 
The amount of food grown there (in the "shadow of the river") is between 5 and 10% of the ENTIRE agricultural output of the USA!  If you think higher energy prices have caused high food prices, just wait until those levees fail...it won't matter where in the world you live, your food bill will be SIGNIFICANTLY higher...

 

LET'S NOT BAIL THEM OUT THIS TIME.

MOVE THE CITIES AWAY FROM THE RIVER.

LET IT FLOW AS IT WILL.

DON'T TRY TO CONTROL THE MEANDERING, IT RENEWS THE FERTILITY OF THE LAND, ETC. ETC. ETC.

LET THE FARMERS and other economic interests SORT IT OUT EVERY YEAR...

 

Ain't gonna happen, they are already throwing billions at the perceived problem ("We need better levees!") which simply demonstrates our COLLECTIVE INSANITY - Let's do what we did before, "control the river", since that's what we did before...and we know how to do that.  No need to inconvenience any VOTERS with a mandatory move 10 miles away...we must rebuild where we were, It's Our Heritage! (and we're PROPERTY OWNERS (as though a human can own part of the planet, what a concept our entire economy is based upon!))

 

I don't think it a good idea to rebuild New Orleans either, but, not many listen to me.

 

Happy Solstice All!

Hi Hal and All

First of all, Frish, I don't have any kids.   (THAT'S THE BEST ANYONE CAN DO TO SAVE THE PLANET, WELL DONE HAL.)

Secondly, I prefer "rosy" optimism to the do-nothing, wring your hands, we're all doomed pessimism you seem to advocate.

(Okay, not sure I adovocate do nothing, besides don't have kids...I had a rather dramatic suggestion re: TRUE COST ACCOUNTING that has yet to be discussed for example...I just would caution that the unintended consequences of our technology, has, so far, been the engine of our distress...what safeguards COULD be in place to avoid that in the future?  NONE!  That's because we've never been able to predict what results from a new disruptive technology (anything planet saving will definitely be disruptive!))

 

If we follow the logic of your position, then why not have kids? What difference can it make? There's nothing we can do to improve things, right, except maybe junking every bit of progress made since the Pleistocene and pretending to be cavemen instead, so we can once again have the joy of struggling for every scrap of food, struggling not to be someone else's food and dying at the ripe old age of 40.

(First, if one knows the future consequences are as I believe they will be, having children is immoral.  And, even way back then (I have an Archaeology degree, by the way, I am a Scientist!) we were doing detrimental things to the environment, we've been a stressor for a long long time, we're just lucky enough to be here near the end.  Our disruptions today, thanks to technology and 6+billion individuals conspire to be PLANET CHANGING, not like 6000 years ago.)

 

The technology that you deride gave us the information we needed to see how we are damaging the environment. Yes, I agree, technology alone won't save us, but without it we don't have a chance. We could develop a green technology that won't come from magic but from science( You're a Bright. Don't you accept the scientific method?) There's little scientific basis for your pessimism, just a philosophy, just like it's obsolete philosophies of politics, religion and economics that holds us back from changing our ways for the better, along with an obsolete understanding of what "self-interest" means. Science, and the clear thinking that comes from it, and technology can help us, not hurt.

(Okay, science and clearly thought technologies got us here Hal.  Excuse me...I'm being realistic not pessimistic at all.  We DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT HOW THINGS WORK TO ARRANGE OURSELVES TO GET BACK TO WHERE WE SHOULD BE.  (that's my scientific opinion).  Humans have no RIGHT to be forever on the planet, we'll go extinct eventually, but, in my opinion we DON'T have the interest in saving ourselves, it is too damn uncomfortable to do what needs to be done...and people continue to go along without a care, since it wasn't so bad yesterday, perhaps tomorrow will be just as fun!  Even with the wonders of science, what will get the individual human (worldwide) to act properly, since HUMAN BEHAVIORS need to change too.  Our social structures do not "evolve" as fast as our technologies, and human nature being what it is, won't easily be changed to support the goal.  But, perhaps the idea of totally totalitarian means to "save us" aren't something you'd find adverse, if only humans can survive.  That's what it will take, and that's my prediction for what will happen, eventually, when the debate society surrounding the science actually settles down to fix the problem...and the evidence of our abuse becomes more visible.)

 

A great deal of the problem (from a motivation of change of human behavior point of view) is that what we've ALREADY DONE in terms of CO2 emissions hasn't been noticed much yet, since natural buffering systems have soaked up much of our excesses.  Much more dramatic effects, OF OUR ALREADY EMITTED GASSES, will become evident, over time, which will do much to get people's attention.  But, in my opinion, you are correct, we are ALREADY DEAD MAN WALKING, therefore, don't have kids so fewer people suffer at the end.  That's why no one should pro-create, to reduce human suffering at the end, it's the only moral choice.

 

From Hal who wonders what your Bright friends think of VHEMT.

(I wonder that too!  Some get it, some don't!)

Hal, the interesting thing is that you agree that the world is MESSED up, since you pine for a technological Eureka Moment! 

 

You HOPE that technology and science will somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat, and, given human ingenuity and our talent for technology you may well be correct...I'll HOPE so too, but I seriously doubt we can be successful...we don't know enough about ALL the planet's systems and therefore "fixing" something will have unintended consequence, almost by definition.  (The really great thing is that we don't have enough TIME to even study what needs to be done, since we're continuing to disrupt things, at an increasing rate (how many coal fired energy generation plants are being built in China?  Something like 20 a month or some ridiculous rate...)).

 

Here's a thought:  gunpowder originated as a means to entertain via fireworks...unintended consequences followed...

 

I see our views as a matter of degree, not type, so thanks for agreeing with me on the base case, glad to continue our debate on possible "solutions".
--
Cheers,

Frish

To my "optimistic" Friend, Hal

Hal:  You said:

"You just assume that the future is going to be like the past. That is not a good methodology, not just for investing but for social policy."

***I agree, for investing.  However, the future will be far worse than the past.

 

Could there be, for instance, a new, renewable energy source that could replace carbon-based fuels and thus ameliorate the single greatest threat to life on earth, global warming? Right now, the answer is no, but what about 10 years or more from now?

***Sure.  Why not?  Why not Magic?  You can put your eggs in a basket that has yet to be woven, be my guest, have all the kids you can handle and then some...

 

It seems to me that the most effective way to change human behavior in the short run would be to do everything possible to encourgae technological change, since that is where solutions to our problems could come from.

*** So, your solution is to do what we've always done, use technology to try to overcome the problems we face since that is what "worked for us" in the past, why not the future? 

 

HOWEVER, WE'RE FINDING, TODAY, THAT IT DIDN'T WORK IN THE PAST.  

 

Technological "solutions" are what cause climate chaos, deforestation, pollution from mines, over fishing, etc. etc. etc.

 

Hmmm, seems you advocate doing what we've always done. 

Isn't that what you accused me of?

 

I'll suggest a little something that may actually help:

Given the damage it causes, what is the true cost of OIL, since we don't and haven't paid for much more than the extraction, refining and distribution?  No where is the damage caused by oil paid for...except in the degradation of the environment.

 

So, if we changed the accounting systems to account for environmental degradation, we'd immediately discover we couldn't afford to put oil into cars...it has much higher and better use in other less polluting ways...see any capitalists clamouring for TRUE COST ACCOUNTING?  Me Neither!

 

From Hal who believes the reports of the demise of the human race have been somewhat exaggerated.

***Of course Hal.  That we know.  Keep up the optimism and don't discard the rosey glasses!

 

Hal, If "You just assume that the future is going to be like the past. That is not a good methodology".

***I agree.  That's just what you are doing.  Technology is the curse that brought us here, you advocate for MORE of it.  Please let your kids know.

Thanks, you got my attention!

I have been contemplating taking my blog down, or simply posting there and copying no one.  I appreciate those of you who took the time and energy to write to me re: my christian lover.  My apologies for once again knowing no boundaries, as the shrink once said, being "socially inappropriate"".

 

(*my surprise is that I copied oh so few of you on this set of notes, guess it struck a chord...I don't have a mass email list I just pick names I think may be interested.  This time I only copied 13 individuals...and got more feedback than almost ever on any topic...5 notes so far and counting!  WOW!)

 

I find it entertaining to argue with knuckleheads.

And, entertaining myself (onanism!) no one can argue with. 

Sharing, but being irritating, is not acceptable...TO ME.

 

Well beyond entertainment, I use exchanges such as that, usually confined to some hidden corner of the internet, to hone my arguments.  (Like I need a reason?  LOL)

 

Hence some of your visceral reactions, as I'm getting GOOD at it.

 

google schmuckfresser to discover one of my major crime scenes. 

The thread there concerned "favorite Swear words" and I found that one was yet to be on the net...so I'll always be the first internet reference to SCHMUCKFRESSER. 

 

Almost makes me sad I won't have grandchildren for that legacy...that site holds over 4000 posts by me, mostly responding to or baiting knuckleheads.

 

You can't teach a pig to whistle, believe it.

 

FOR THE RECORD: 

My sister reminds me that she's the concubine, and her boyfriend is the fornicator.  Glad to clear that up.

 

If you want to know what schmuckfresser means...well...

 

Happy trails...I'm contemplating my next move.

My christian (small case "c") love responds...again...(LAST FROM ME ANYWAY)

Dear Laura:  So glad you are showing your face to the world, I tried to protect you from this, but hey...your choice.

 

P.S. Theosodic is not a word.  If you meant Theosophism, I can't be that, since it includes mysticism. 

Your confusion astounds.  Thanks for playing...my BRIGHT friends wonder why I bother, but I figure our next step is to create a Theosodic Church, thanks for the word, I'm running for "Pope of Theosodicism"!
(Got to get onto Cafe Press quick and buy the T-Shirt!)

>
Well, if He doesn't exist as you say, you can't go to heaven since you are not holy enough for the God who created you.  But see, I know Him, and have accepted Him and His sacrifice so I, because of His  sacrifice have the right to.  I am not worthy either.

   ***He doesn't exist and there is no heaven and we'll both be quietly dead far too soon.  Live long and die off.

Wisdom begins with the Word of God, not with what you think, so you may think yourself wise, but you have been made a fool.  You might think, but you have no wisdom according to the Word of God.
What I am served is the Word of God, thank you for affirming that.

   ***No, thank you for letting me know how limited your horizons are.

I only hate Satan and the people who evangelize his teachings. 

   ***As you like (or hate). 

 

You hate God's creation, I don't. 

    *** Interesting claim, can you substantiate it?  God didn't create anything, so it is hard to hate it firstly.

 

He created PEOPLE to take care of His creation, but you hate that idea. 

   ***We're certainly doing a stellar job.

 

That is great to call VHEMT a choice.  All religions are choices, God doesn't force Himself on anyone.  It is always a decision to follow Him or not.  You start with a Theosodic belief, and decide what you want to belief.  I start with the WISDOM of GOD, and let it end there.  What is better, the Wisdom of God, or his created being who wants to decide what to believe.  That is no choice to the rest of us

   ***FREEDOM of belief doesn't mean freedom from making mistakes, and you are a prime example. 

You can go on to hell, that is your choice, but your evangelizing to others is a different matter. 

   ***How is it different than you evangelizing?

 

If you would just keep your theosodic beliefs to yourself, no problem. The problem is when you cause others to be affirmed in their ways.

    ***Others must defend themselves from my onslaughts as they so choose.   You don't give people much credit for having minds of their own or an ability to pick wheat from chaff.

That's a great joke, the $200, will you joke about it forever, I hope I get to look down to you once you die, because you are the root of a lot of evil since you are evangelizing theosodic beliefs. 

   ***theosodic...wonder what you mean?  Your self righteousness will certainly give god plenty to think about...glad you got the joke anyway, I'm still laughing.

 

Just remember, there are different levels of hell, and I am sure that a special level will be for those that helped take others with them.  Satan will be laughing at you all the way.

    ***We will all wake up dead someday.  Live long and die off.

It is simple.  My objection is that you are espousing beliefs that affirm people's theosodism.  If all you did is not have kids that is one thing.  But I am sure you fornicate, maybe I am wrong and you are married, but I doubt it.

   *** I fornicate at every opportunity, are you looking to hook up?  By the way, my sister is a concubine and fornicator too, according to her boyfriend's daughter...Runs in the family!

The definition of religion has nothing to do with money or spiritual guidance.  It has to do with who you look to for morality, it can be you, as it is in this case.  It doesn't need a place of worship.  You do seek to define morality by saying the Bible is wrong about children.  Most religions do not have a hierarchy or bureaucracy.  You don't need a book, it can just be a set of beliefs.  So it covers EVERY CRITERIA for a religion.

   ***Sorry, vhemt covers NO CRITERIA of religion, and nothing you said here refutes that.

   ***Morality is built into our very beings.  You obviously missed that part of the lecture.  That's how people who have never heard of jesus or bibles have morals too!  It is part of being human, we're ANIMALS that are SOCIAL.  Morality is what governs our social behaviors, and is BUILT IN.  You didn't become a moral actor by reading a book.

Lastly, I only speak to have you not go to hell, not for any reason of my own.

   ***Oh, now you tell me!

OK, apologies to those who cringe at the thought of another round of this, I'll desist.

 

THEOSODIC PARABLE # 1 - from the Pope of Theosodicism...

 

NEVER TRY TO TEACH A PIG TO WHISTLE,

IT WILL FRUSTRATE YOU, BUT IT ANNOYS THE PIG.

My christian (small case "c") love responds...

Dear Lover you responded:

"Well you sure have the arrogance to go with it.  You are not religious, and hate Jesus, but quote him.  That sure is great.  Can't you think at all.  I guess not, to be a VHEMTer. "

So, I wrote:

I have arrogance and you told me to shut up?
Can you think at all, or do you believe everything that you are served up?
Ho boy.

 

To which you responded:

 

No, I believe that which comes from the Word of God.  You are arrogant because you say, in effect all religions are equal, and that VHEMT is not a religion.  It has a set of beliefs just like all religions do, and it has a goal to evangelize people in those beliefs all around the world.  How could that not be religion?  I only asked you to stop spouting your "beliefs" because you are directing people towards the theosodic way.

 

0.  I quoted the word of god, and follow His proscription to have no gods before having him. I recommend it.  You admit, WITH PRIDE, that you do believe what you are served.  Very good example of critical thinking, but, oh, I forgot, I was the one that isn't thinking....(Transference Anyone?)

 

Jesus never existed.  I suppose I could hate Jesus, and probably the Easter Bunny, Santa and other figments... but I don't have the energy or desire to HATE anyone.  You might learn something from that...

 

1.  All religions are equal.  Equally bad at explaining the truth about the reality we see around us...HENCE prevelent mental disease, armies and nations motivated by false assumptions, etc. etc. etc.  FAITH IS DANGEROUS ON IT'S FACE!  That's why I'm a BRIGHT, to protect ALL of our rights to freedom of thought and to ensure a continued and every stronger separation of religion and government.

 

2.  VHEMT is not a religion nor a "set of beliefs" as you say!  No diety, no holy book, no places of worship, no hierarchy of bureaucracy, no philosophy of life, no attempt to define morality and ethics, no commands of how to live day to day, no money changing hands, no "spiritual" guidance, no attempt to explain ANYTHING about the world around us...sorry, fails EVERY criteria for being a religion...

 

VHEMT is simply an individual choice, and I hope you choose correctly.

 

3.  Yes, one goal is to share our INDIVIDUAL DECISION (BASED ON INDIVIDUAL REASONS, NOT DICTATED BY OUR GROUP), but mostly we preach to the choir.

 

4.  You asked me to stop spouting my beliefs, I find that quite fascinating.  I never suggested you do the same.  Once again, Mighty "christian" of you ma'am.

 

5.  You have also told me I'll be going to hell.  If I pass GO, do I collect the $200?

 

6.  Most Importantly:  What exactly is your objection to VHEMT?  Why do you troll our group if you are so bothered by this decision we've made?

I received this in my personal email, she says she LOVES ME!

Being worried about the sender, I respond with the goal of tipping her obviously fragile mental health over the edge altogether.  So she can get the help she is crying out for...that's true LOVE of fellow man, Ma'am...(those copied can laugh or cry as you so wish!)

 

The sender was prompted to write as a result of my volunteer status in the VHEMT, (see www.vhemt.org) and a recent post no doubt, but as I am also Fearless Leader of the LA Brights, (an organization public opinion holds in slightly higher esteem than VHEMT, but not by much, I do know how to pick 'em eh? (http://brights.meetup.com/286/)), I repeat the email, in it's unedited breathlessness,  and comment on each phrase below.

 

From someone who claims to love me!

 

"Since you want to talk about love, please remember what Jesus told the religious men, who did not want him, he did not speak kindly to them.  Vhemt is also a religion, and you are just as religious as those people were.  Remember the Romans who went into the Coliseum and were eaten by the lions.  It is not that they would not worship the emperor that was the problem, according to Roman law, it was okay to both worship the emperor and Jesus.  They just refused to worship anyone in addition to Jesus.  You want to say all religions are the same, and to you it is loving people.  Well, Jesus said HE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT, AND NOONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY HIM.  You are either calling Him a liar by your stances or He is not who He says He is.  So please don't call yourself a Christian.  I love you, but God will just vie with you for a while, after that He gives you over to what you want.  And you say I don't exhibit love by speaking the Truth.  This doesn't work, under any circumstances.  The result of your religion is death, not life, and I just pray that your voice is silenced ASAP  AMEN and AMEN. May God's word be true and every man be a liar forever and ever."

 

My comments have a *** in front.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Since you want to talk about love,

    ***I really prefer to make love.  I don't talk about it much.

 

please remember what Jesus told the religious men, who did not want him, he did not speak kindly to them. 

    ***Born Jewish, I wouldn't remember anything attributed to the man-god story book character named Jesus...(or did you say Mithras, Krishna, Horus, Zoraster, or a dozen other man-gods who were born of virgins, were ressurected, etc. etc. etc.). 

 

Vhemt is also a religion

    ***VHEMT is nothing like a religion.  It isn't even a philosophy or a way of life.  It is only a decision by individuals not to procreate. 

    ***I hear similar arguments by the religious that Atheism is a religion.  Weird, however, being a BRIGHT: I have no belief in fantasy, mysticism, superstition, supernatural, magic or other speculations that are beyond the nature that we see around us, and am in no way religious.  I do have well justified opinions however, so I kinda get what you meant.

 

and you are just as religious as those people were. 

    ***okay.  Since I'm not, I suppose they weren't either.

 

Remember the Romans who went into the Coliseum and were eaten by the lions. 

    ***Yes, I'm certain they put up a good fight.  Thumbs UP!

 

It is not that they would not worship the emperor that was the problem, according to Roman law, it was okay to both worship the emperor and Jesus.  They just refused to worship anyone in addition to Jesus. 

   ***Break the law, go to jail. 

 

You want to say all religions are the same, and to you it is loving people. 

   ***I do?  I did?  I can't even understand what you are saying.  Religions have one thing in common, THEY ALL SUGGEST:  "Love each other as you would be loved."  I found that curious, then discovered that this is actually the DEFINITION OF SOCIAL PRIMATE BEHAVIOR.  If humans didn't have this BUILT INTO OUR GENES, we'd eat our own children, and those of our neighbors and the neighbors too...so, all world religions recognize this TRUTH, and espouse it, but they didn't create it, they only REFLECT this truth, and attempt to claim it as their own.  However, it is the very  DEFINITION OF HUMAN NATURE, to be sure.  Of course I love people, they are my species.  Just "pray with me" that they don't have any more kids...thanks.

 

Well, Jesus said HE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT, AND NOONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY HIM. 

   ***However, FIRST The Father said:  "Have No Other Gods Before Me!" 

       I continue to have NO gods (before I have him).  You ought obey the Father as I do.

 

You are either calling Him a liar by your stances or He is not who He says He is. 

   ***"He" never existed except in a set of books that you seem to ascribe magical powers.  And, yes, anyone saying otherwise is lying or confused beyond my comprehension.

 

So please don't call yourself a Christian. 

   ***Never have NEVER WILL!  I'll take that loving advice.

 

I love you,

   ***Sounds tempting, but I may be interpreting that differently than you mean.

 

but God will just vie with you for a while, after that He gives you over to what you want. 

    ***There can't be anything like god, and I can prove it.  I'm not waiting, I have what I want right now, thanks.

 

and you say I don't exhibit love by speaking the Truth. 

   *** I said nothing of the sort.  However, if you think you are speaking truth, you might as well be speaking in tongues...never was a Jesus, the bible was written by men and selected to be as you see it by men, and nothing in the world shows any evidence othewise.

 

This doesn't work, under any circumstances. 

   *** HUH?  Right.  HUH?

 

The result of your religion is death,

   ***(Actually, though history, the result of YOUR religion is death, probably another discussion altogether see Crusades, Morality Play, Pogrom and Catholic and Protestant complicity in Hitler's rise and the Holocaust...) 

    ***DEATH is a result of SEX.  Before sexual reproduction things grew and split, if they didn't get eaten or drown in their own waste, they COULDN'T DIE from old age.  After sexual reproduction began, the parents have to die to make room for the offspring.

 

not life, and I just pray that your voice is silenced ASAP 

   ***Mighty Christian of you. Don't know if you are from the USA or not (I suspect so, there aren't a lot of folk in the rest of the world who hold the views you claim above) but here in the USA freedom of THOUGHT is still practiced.  

   ***Nice example of the love you claim for me.  Thanks a heap. 

   ***With a lover like you I've just had a religious conversion: Onanism - it's the coming thing!

 

AMEN and AMEN.

   ***Sounds sexist somehow.  Here in West Hollywood, marriage is now legal for EVERYONE, as of 5:01pm today, which is really funny because June 16th is the 29th anniversary of my own marriage, which ended in 2003!   Hope amen and amen live happily and CHILDFREE, ever after...etc.

 

May God's word be true

   ***May?

and every man be a liar forever and ever.

   ***What a shockingly dismal worldview.  Are you one of those lying "men" too dear?

Thanks for sharing...and hope you feel better now that you've cast the devil from our midst...

Wasn't there something in there about judging not?  Hmmm

 

PLEASE, DON'T HAVE KIDS...THEY'LL REQUIRE DEPROGRAMMING (and prozac).

Recent "odd news" listings

Most Viewed: Odd News  *yahoo as of this time stamp basically...

Girl survives lightning strike, then wins $20 AP               

(Wow, they've really increased the payout, I'm going to Oklahoma...!)

Mysterious 'Gas Men' dole out cash at the pumps AP     

(Who cares what shoes they wear?)

Illinois man changes name to 'In God We Trust' AP         

(But he's having problems, since people pronounce it as:"WHAT-A-JERK")

Spider monkey uses garden hose to flee Indiana zoo AP 

(Seems kinda small to squeeze through, even for a spider monkey!)

Armpit sniffer gets jail and cane Reuters                         

(I'm continuing my 12 step program and am getting better, but, if you are nearby...!)

BEST HEADLINE YET, AS THE WORLD DISSOLVES AROUND US! "Companies get OK to annoy polar bears "

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080614/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/polar_bears_oil;_ylt=AuJCqhU1fw4keZ0o4H0nv10PLBIF

LABrights FLASH: Intelligence and belief in GOD(s) - reaction to "God makes you stupid..."

Dear LA Brights and others copied:

(*FLASH stands for "Fearless Leader Addresses Special Humans" (I'm Fearless Leader (LABrights) and you are Special Humans!  Thanks for being so!))

 

> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/12/god_boffins/
> God makes you stupid, researchers claim
> By Chris Williams
> The UK Register, London, UK
> Published Thursday 12th June 2008 11:06 GMT

 

The study is bullcrap on its face since intelligence by itself won't make you faith free.  AND I know plenty of quite intelligent faithful too...

 

As my yoga guru (Behram Yogi-Raj - a rather serious proponent of yoga for sure) maintained: "Stupid People Don't Need Yoga".

 

What he was drivng at was those with lesser IQ DON'T EVEN BOTHER considering the potentialities of a unknown future.  

 

They don't worry...so don't need yoga!

 

A wholely holey holy explanation (copyright FRISH) works just fine, even keeps the questions from coming up!

 

Faith is belief without reason, hence atheists and diests agree:

 

"There's No Reason For God" (Copyright FRISH) 

 

Consider: how stupid will we look after we die and find they were right after all?!?!?

JOKE! 

 

So, here's a question:

I'm wondering how my ex-spouse and my prior (coincident (sorry, again, dear)) and subsequent sex partners will get along with me in heaven...and how old will we be there?

 

See what I mean...there's something one can ONLY worry about, and do yoga to cure!

 

The actual takeaway of the article: "Brains are a curse!"

--
Frish

Small slice of what I wrote to GMAIL tonight as I witness it eating it's own tail in my inbox!

Dear GMAIL:  Thanks for your immediate attention to this matter.

SYMPTOM :

My email box is continuously receiving copies of ancient but legitimate emails originally sent to my regular email id blahblahblah@gmail.com from my www.salesblahblahjobs.com listing.

These need to be stopped please, I've now got hundreds (copies each of a few total notes seem to be multiplying…fascinating…but distracting, and I don't really want my storage eaten up, and neither do you!)

They are NOT being sent by www.salesjobs.com.

PLEASE contact info@salesblahblahjobs.com 

here's some debugging help…

CLUE:

All of these messages have a label of a new ID I created, that shall remain nameless, but none appear in that inbox.

It's like a jokulhaups of emails!

Very weird and wunnerful…

I create an ID,

push email,

and suddenly receive loads of copies of very old emails,

simply STINKS of GMAIL entrails, since

"Where in the world would these notes be but gmail",

(sung to the tune of Carmen SanDiego)…

--
Cheers all...Frish

From "Our Favorite Disasters" File:

Jokulhaups Jokulhaupsnoun jokulhaups

1. the flood of water etc that occurs when a volcano erupts underneath a glacier

Etymology: Icelandic

IMPEACHMENT - write your representative today!

Thanks.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Congressman Henry A. Waxman <ca30hima.pub@mail.house.gov>
Date: Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Subject: Re. your recent message
To:

Thank you for contacting me. I was glad to hear from you, and I look
forward to keeping in touch in the future.

If you would like to learn more about my work in Congress, please visit my
website at www.house.gov/waxman.

Additionally, I encourage you to sign up for periodic email updates about
my work. Your email address will never be shared, and you may unsubscribe
at any time. This feature is available through my website's homepage.

Representative Henry A. Waxman (CA-30)

--------
FRISH'S NOTE TO WAXMAN'S OFFICE...

THANKS FOR SUPPORTING THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT.

 Congress in general has be DERILICT in DUTY and must rectify immediately.

Please inform Speaker Pelossi there is no more pressing business than to
get the full story of this horrendous, anti-american, administration OUT
for people to know what they've done.

ANYTHING LESS IS ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL, GET YOUR COHORTS TO FORGET ABOUT
POLITICS FOR A CHANGE AND DO THEIR JOBS.

This is not a witch hunt, it is a criminal prosecution and we've waited for Justice far too long already.

--
Cheers,

Frish

why impeachment is important.

Facts.  Discovered.  To avoid future similar situations.  Criminal prosecutions probable.

 

It won't, possibly, come to an end before the end of this administration.

 

The idea that it is a "distraction" is so UNAMERICAN AND ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL that it defies belief that anyone wouldn't want this to happen.

 

So we know what actually has been happening in the corrupt, incompetent, self serving, and probably criminal Bush administration.

 

An accurate article re: Populaton, finally

Robert:

I write to you directly thanks to your fine article...http://www.alternet.org/environment/87520/

I am sharing it with a most Environmentally Conscious group: WWW.VHEMT.ORG.

 

Our firm stance is that no more humans ought to be born, as a voluntary decision by everyone!  Although members have many reasons for joining, personally I find any decision to have children an immoral one, given the consequences at which you so eloquently hint!

 

From your first paragraph:

"All historical eras are shaped by the material and environmental realities of their time. Our own reflects the adjustments society and nature have made to accommodate the unprecedented 6.7 billion human beings now alive. And those changes are dramatic."

 

Nature can react (likely in a very bad way) to our deprecations, it cannot make accomodations!  Unless you feel that things like the natural ability of the world's oceans to absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, acidifying the oceans to the detriment of coral reefs etc., is an "accomodation"...

 

Less than 100,000 years ago, there was only one extended family from whose genes we all descend.  It is not enough to reduce our population, we must no longer be on the planet at all if LIFE ITSELF is to survive...

 

Our culture, used by our earliest ancestors to overwhelm nature, has now officially done so.

 

We've "beat" nature, and now we will have to MANAGE ALL OF THE PLANETARY SYSTEMS AND CYCLES for any chance to survive...

 

We've proven we're capable of ruining the planet, but no where near ready to run it.

 

Nature will "respond" (without consciousness or direction).  

 

Having NO MORE CHILDREN is the best way to both save the biosphere and to reduce the numbers of those suffering at the end...

--
Cheers,

Frish

P.S. We ought to discuss the origins of agriculture, I make the case it was due to overpopulation and the "carrying capacity" of women to tolerate so many children under 5 years old...they stopped walking and permanent settlements and agriculture followed...overpopulation created the need for agriculture, not lack of prey...

If you are a "believer" don't read this post.

DEAR VHEMTers:  (for those also copied, bear with me after you see www.vhemt.org)

 

As I've often said, we get to our childfree positions in a wide variety of ways. 

 

I made a comment earlier, simply stating facts as I understand them, which brought about the following response:

 

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:19 PM, someonewhowillbenameless wrote:

Well, I'm glad you will go to hell with gusto, since you don't like the God who created you.  Thank goodness you know where you stand, and that you will go to your ultimate destination with your head held high, and want to tell the God who created you what you think of Him.  GO FOR IT.

If you wish to "believe" in god(s) you are welcome to do so.  Your sarcasm was sustained and measured, sorry you are so judgemental...didn't "HE" warn you about that?

 

Hell and God and Souls and life-after-death are simply concepts that only exist in peoples' minds.

 

FAITH IS BELIEF WITHOUT REASON.  You need NO REASON to believe.

 

Or, "There is NO REASON to believe".

 

I do hope your widely held "belief" is not being drummed into any children, it can cause much cognitive dissonance since nothing about god is evident in the reality we see everyday.  How confusing for a young mind to cope with that complexity...

 

The good news:  We only die once.

The bad news,   We only live once.

 

Reality lets me appreciate every second I'm alive, it's the only life I'll get!

 

Life and You and I are simply the outcome of natural chemistry of the Earth.  It wasn't engineered for us, that's exactly the opposite of  reality! 

 

Life began on Earth because the ingredients to allow the chemistry of life to begin were here already!

 

Self Replicating Molecules started up, evolution takes control, and here we are!

 

Nature threw everything it could at us during our evolution, and we're the survivors, so it seems everything was made for us.

 

Turns out, cockroaches and condors, and redwood trees, if they could, would also feel the Earth was engineered for them!  But, Earth and time and evolution did the engineering!

 

Put another way:  Biology is simply a subset of geology.  Period.  It just chemistry, that had to have started right here, perfectly naturally, nothing supernatural needed!

 

Here's a couple of quick thoughts proving that god can NOT exist!

 

Information needs a medium upon which to exist.  Data cannot exist in a vacuum, that's sort of the definition of a vacuum, nothing there!!

 

So, since the concept known as "god" is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent omni-etc., he has to work at faster than light speeds so that he can arrange for which person to save in the tornado and which must die...

 

Upon what particle do god's thought reside? 

 

What faster than light energy so powerful it can create the universe n 7 days, is CONSTANTLY surrounding us yet is undetected?

 

Love to hear anyone refute my cybernetic proof of god's non-existence.

 

Oh, god(s) work in mysterious ways alright...but if he works at all he does so disregarding the physics of the natural universe.

 

No Reason For god(s).

 

Frish

Fearless Leader, LA Brights

Also good for public transportation...Don't leave YOUR baby on the bus!

Child Safety		Top
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HILLARY'S NOTE TO DONORS (and Frish's comments)

This is for Hillary supporters who are anguished about her dashed hopes.  See notes below...

 

Okay, fate, foot in mouth, husband, media, bad staffing decisions and bad decisions by staff, Obama's minions and money, reputation preceding her, sexism, ignorance, THE RULES, etc., intervened...

 

The platforms are identical.  The appointees are identical. 

One can only hope that they'll be good enough, but it will be better than what we have now!

 

The only thing missing wihout Hillary is Ovaries with their follicles on the nuclear button.

 

May your grieving be short, and your enthusiasm gain.

He'll require our support, thanks.

 

See attached for attacks he's already undergoing, and no, Hillary didn't send it to him...

 

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Amy, a Hillary Donor received the note below, here's her comment:

I am so very sad for her and for us.  I will support Obama with a very heavy heart.
~Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: Hillary Clinton [mailto:info@hillaryclinton.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:49 PM
To: Amy
Subject: I want you to know

Dear Amy,

I wanted you to be one of the first to know: on Saturday, I will hold an
event in Washington D.C. to thank everyone who has supported my
campaign. Over the course of the last 16 months, I have been privileged
and touched to witness the incredible dedication and sacrifice of so
many people working for our campaign. Every minute you put into helping
us win, every dollar you gave to keep up the fight meant more to me than
I can ever possibly tell you.

On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my
support for his candidacy. This has been a long and hard-fought
campaign, but as I have always said, my differences with Senator Obama
are small compared to the differences we have with Senator McCain and
the Republicans.

I have said throughout the campaign that I would strongly support
Senator Obama if he were the Democratic Party's nominee, and I intend to
deliver on that promise.

When I decided to run for president, I knew exactly why I was getting
into this race: to work hard every day for the millions of Americans who
need a voice in the White House.

I made you -- and everyone who supported me -- a promise: to stand up
for our shared values and to never back down. I'm going to keep that
promise today, tomorrow, and for the rest of my life.

I will be speaking on Saturday about how together we can rally the party
behind Senator Obama. The stakes are too high and the task before us too
important to do otherwise.

I know as I continue my lifelong work for a stronger America and a
better world, I will turn to you for the support, the strength, and the
commitment that you have shown me in the past 16 months. And I will
always keep faith with the issues and causes that are important to you.

In the past few days, you have shown that support once again with
hundreds of thousands of messages to the campaign, and again, I am
touched by your thoughtfulness and kindness.

I can never possibly express my gratitude, so let me say simply, thank
you.

Sincerely,
 Hillary<http://static.hillaryclinton.com/email/images/sig_hillary2.gif>

Hillary Rodham Clinton

 Contribute<http://static.hillaryclinton.com/email/20080513/button.jpg>

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Re: This week's Democratic Radio Address (USA)

Frish Sez: This is mildly amazing, and certainly an in-your-face, you no-nothing-human-caused-climate-chaos-deniers! 

 

She misses the point that fewer people is the first and best answer to our dilemma, but hey, full credit otherwise...(score - 49 out of 100, about 40 points higher than anything else ever said by a Senator...or by anyone in the Bush administration).

 

I proclaim influence a congressman week!

 

Send your rep/senators a letter and let them know about us! 

 

I'm VHEMT!   (and remain...Frish!)

 

"Good morning. I'm Senator Barbara Boxer from California and Chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee.  Next week, the Senate will begin debate on one of the most important issues of our time – global warming.

"Senators have come together across party lines to write a law that will not only enable us to avoid the ravages of unchecked global warming, but will create millions of new jobs and put us on the path to energy independence.  Other benefits of our legislation will be cleaner air, energy efficiency, relief for consumers and the alternative energy choices that American families deserve.  And, by acting wisely, America will regain the leadership we have lost these past seven years.

"There are some in the Senate who insist that global warming is nothing more than science fiction.  These are the same kind of voices who said that the world was flat, cigarettes were safe and cars didn't need airbags – long after the rest of us knew the truth.

"The fact is that the overwhelming majority of scientists say that the earth is in peril if we don't act now.  They've told us clearly that more than 40 percent of God's creatures could face extinction if we don't act now.  They've told us of more intense weather events if we don't act now.  Health experts have told us that infectious diseases will increase due to warmer waters.  And military leaders have told us that unchecked global warming will lead to severe conflict and war as droughts, floods and rising sea levels create huge numbers of desperate refugees.

"I hope you will help us convince the negative voices that we must act now to avert these dangers.  Tell the Bush administration to help us, not fight us.  Tell your Senators that action now will have positive results for our families and our nation.  Tell those skeptics who say 'wait for China and India to act' that the America we know and love doesn't hide from a challenge and wait for others to lead.

"Right now, many of our states, including my home state, are leading.  They have the will.  Our mayors are leading.  They have the will.  Religious leaders have urged us to act now as well.  They reminded me of a wonderful quote that motivates me to work as hard as I can for as long as it takes to responsibly address global warming.  These words stay with me: 'When God created the first man, he took him around to all the trees in the Garden of Eden and said to him "see my handiwork, how beautiful and choice they are.  Be careful not to ruin and destroy my world, for if you do ruin it, there is no one to repair it after you."'
 
"I truly hope that you will support our efforts on the Senate floor.  Please join our fight, and thanks for listening.

Culture - It reveals the lie of the "War on Terror"

Lloyd wrote in response to my note earlier tonight.  I copy part of his note here, and respond more fully below:

 

Lloyd wrote:

...snip... 
However small, the Muslim secularists currently control key Arab states.  Money is certainly at work now, and is especially frustrating since we supply the capital from our purchase of oil and drugs.  The secular Arab states caused us little or no trouble when they were broke.
 
But now what should we do, or not do?"

...snip...

 

Terrorism" is just as big a problem for those governments as for us.

 

They want stability.

 

We must support their POLICE, and JUDICIARY. 

 

THE WINNING STRATEGY IS NOT DEMOCRACY PER SE, IT IS establishing the RULE OF LAW.

 

(The real winning strategy is getting off oil, but that's another discussion)

 

Terrorism - old definition, Pre-BUSHCO: 

"Criminal Acts Performed In Pursuit of Political Goals"

 

We need to respond to the criminal aspects...with legal and police methods (infiltration, neutralization, arrest, open trials, and sentences...with rather more than usual cooperation between supposed national enemies (Pakistan and India for example) it would be EASY to erase all the terrorists.  

 

That was not and is not the point of BUSHCO.

 

They wanted, and obtained, perpetual war, so they can perpetually suck at the teat of taxpayer largess...while clanging a pro-christian cultural crusades cymbol.

 

BUSHCO AND THE SAUDI EXTREMISTS WHO FINANCE OBAMA ARE ON THE SAME PAGE AND SERVING EACH OTHER, NOT NECESSARILY explicitly, SIMPLY BY THEIR ACTIONS...more terrorists now than in 2001, BUSHCO was best recruiting tool the extremists could wish for, and all we have to show for it is thousands of US dead, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani dead, and millions upon millions of displaced people, and 50% of the world's population has been born, watching us do it!!! 

 

Not too good for public relations, or being a moral example.

 

Culturally:  One cannot export, demand, instill, or otherwise "spread" democracy (except by being a better example than we have been lately).  SPREADING DEMOCRACY is oxymoronic on its face.  Democracy must be home grown, to be meaningful, and, it requires a population that can READ and understand what their civic duties are...Afghans aren't quite there yet, probably neither is Qatar, who knows?!?

 

However, a sense of JUSTICE is GENETICALLY EMBEDDED IN US.  (loads of research from monkeys to college students, we've got a moral compass that's built in (3 month old infants show it...) and that includes a sense of what is just and what is not just.

 

Establishing the RULE OF LAW is what wins.

1.  The natives appreciate that they can rely on the government and the laws.

PAKISTAN is the current poster child for renewal of their entire court system, since it was dismantled a couple of years ago...the people aren't pleased!

 

2.  Countries that establish the rule of law will much more easily attract CAPITAL, which is the only religion worth pursuing amongst those with it!

 

3.  With rule of law, things can progress, women can be liberated to have educations and control of their own bodies, democracy can bloom...if that's what the natives want...

 

I am afraid the Neo-Con's kool-aid has you swimming Lloyd.

 

There are reasons for war, and there are reasons for war.

 

Religion is used as a justification for actions, on both sides.

 

However, the Iraqi war is ONLY about OIL and obtaining the military investment necessary to defend our use of OIL, for ever (or 100 years, whatever comes first). 

 

FOLLOW THE MONEY:  HALIBURTON, LOCKHEED, EXXON, ETC.

 

Have you heard that "We are fighting them there, so we won't have to fight them here?"

 

Are we really defending our incredible acts in Iraq by that claim?

 

Could there be a more heinously IMMORAL act, fighting a war on a proxy state's ground?

 

FORGET ABOUT THE MERITS OF OUR INVASION AND OCCUPATION OF A NATION THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY NO THREAT TO THE U.S., SUCH AS IRAQ...

 

IN THIS DEMOCRACY, CAN YOU VOTE FOR FIGHTING A WAR ON FOREIGN GROUND EXPLICITLY TO PROTECT THE US?  

 

THAT'S HOW OUR CULTURE WILL END THE WAR IN IRAQ...IF PEOPLE TRULY THOUGHT ABOUT JUST THAT IDEA, HOW MORAL IS IT TO FORCE A WAR UPON SOMEWHERE ELSE, TO DEFEND OUR LAND HERE...why don't they phrase it that way? 

 

because obama and hillary are supporters of the corporate interests too, otherwise they couldn't get elected, that's the corporate capital nature of our democracy!

 

(P.S. LLOYD: ON 9/11, I watched the second tower get hit live on Television, I thought it was a movie trailer.... 

 

I decided, immediately, the correct response to this act was Surrender.

 

Anyone crazy enough, desperate enough to do this, would do it again. 

 

The only way to prevent that is to surrender, so they won't have reason to do it again.

 

Of course, I presented my viewpoint to many in the ensuing days, they were aghast, or worse, but...when they asked me to expound, I simply asked, "To whom ought we surrender?" and of course, no one knew who had sent the planes that day at the time...and so, since they couldn't tell me to whom we ought to surrender, I asked them how could we go to war...

 

If you are at WAR, you MUST know to WHOM MIGHT YOU SURRENDER.

 

To whom ought we surrender since we're in a "War on Terror"?

 

If you don't know, then we aren't at war at all...one cannot proclaim war on a tactic, there are RULES and LAWS of war, and BUSHCO BROKE ALL OF THEM!

 

Justice grinds slowly, but there will be justice in due time...)

 

PPS ( and a few more comments below):

DON'T DISCOUNT THE ARMEGEDDON CROWD WHO ARE BECOMING QUICKLY ISOLATED AS MCCAIN SHEDS PREACHERS...IRAQ ISN'T ABOUT OIL, IT IS ABOUT FULFILLMENT OF GOD'S PROPHESY DON'T YOU KNOW.

 

END TIMES, TITANTIC BATTLES, WEST VERSUS EAST, CRUSADES, GOTTA LOVE IT!

 

 

 

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Lloyd wrote:

Michael.

 

My reference to "primitive" societies was intended to mean those that began to form as early man came down out of the trees.

(((

I WOULD REFER TO THEM AS EARLY SOCIETIES BUT SURE!  

 

You really are asking, what is the nature of human nature?  !!!

 

What made "proto-humans" different?  What was our competitive advantage? 

(FIRE?  LANGUAGE?  SOCIAL RULES THAT ENGENDERED BETTER RETENTION OF KNOWLEDGE OVER GENERATIONS???)

 

BUILT IN RULES of right and wrong are a huge part of it! 

(These are required to have humans be social creatures to begin with!)

 

However, as I've discussed at length elsewhere, It's not nice to (try to) fool mother nature...our "success" as a species may be quite shortlived...

 

)))

 

However small, the Muslim secularists currently control key Arab states.  Money is certainly at work now, and is especially frustrating since we supply the capital from our purchase of oil and drugs.  The secular Arab states caused us little or no trouble when they were broke.

 

But now what should we do, or not do?

 

 Lloyd

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael 

To: Lloyd

Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: Culture

Hi all, back again, just returned and let me add some quick comments "inline" below for your fascination..

This is cursory, and I'm exhausted from my vacation (how does that work?) so here's something...

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Lloyd > wrote:

Sue, Nancy & Michael,

 

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

you are welcome.

 

This all started with Sue's and my email exchanges regarding religion and culture.  It is my hottest topic because of the Mideast situation, the Arab theocracies and the growth of militant Muslimism.

Okay, wondered where it came from.

 

Sue and I agreed that we were both non-secular members of different cultures, both cultures having similar religious traditions.  My first argument was that cultures had to grow from religion, but from your emails, I see that there is much more to the subject.  I enjoyed Michael's comment that the God of the Old Testament is a "farmer's god".

 

You make the point that cultures "grow up" in a society, and it makes sense that this is so, but is not some form of isolation required for a people to form and maintain a culture?  Examples are geography, e.g. oceans, deserts or mountains; prejudice, e.g. Jews, Mormons; language, e.g. the Amish.  Cultures can be maintained by the same forces that supported their beginnings, by indoctrination of the young, as well as forces from government or a priesthood.

Yes exactly.  What you see today (cultures clashing!  it is called "globalization"!) is because there are no longer natural barriers for ideas to be exchanged.  THINGS ARE GETTING OUT OF "CONTROL" AND SOME DON'T LIKE THAT (Chinese Gov't over the past 60 years, Myanmar's dictators, North Korean, Albania, Cuba, etc. are the extreme examples...)

 

The learning of Language (and therefore the basic passing of CULTURE) is done in family groups.  It is hard to sway family tradition in a generation or two...generally, we do things like our parents...cooking, working, voting, etc.

 

 

In a primitive society,

(Sorry, I understand the term "primitive society" in a much different way...all cultures and societies, are "equal" from a sophistication point of view, (all societies have to solve the same problems, in order to continue their cultural socialization as you said above...therefore there are no such things as "primitive" societies!!!)  I'll assume that you mean cultures without the technological (so called) advantages we enjoy)

 

whatever their culture's beginnings, natural disasters like fire, flood, tornado, hurricane, drought, earthquake, disease, death, eclipses, and so on, were frightening phenomena.  These mysterious happenings provided fertile ground for the empowerment of individuals promising to identify the supernatural powers behind the mischief and prescribe (religious) behaviors to placate them. 

How "god" or "spirit" or "supernatural" get's into the picture is as you say. 

Think about what else is "promised" by our western religious tradition:

We have souls (whatever you think that is, about as easy to define as god(s))

We will live forever through our souls.  THAT SEEMS to be of interest to people...

When you dream of dead grandma, that's evidence of souls.

When you have or hear of, a near death experience, and white light is radient down the tunnel of love...that's evidence of everlasting life.

Any unexplained phenomena: 

Why did the fire burn my third child but not my second?  God Knows!

et. etc. etc.   you can see how all of this can be institutionalized in many incarnations, so as to attract those who are currently looking for explanations...

 

Motivation to seek power seems so basic to human nature that I don't see how any culture, whatever its beginnings, could avoid coming under religious dominance at some point in their history.

Dominance?  Not really.  FOLLOW THE MONEY.  IT IS ALL ABOUT THE ECONOMY, WHATEVER ELSE IS GOING ON...THE RELIGIOUS AND THOSE WHO MAINTAIN THEIR KEEP THROUGH DONATIONS OF THE SHEEP, ARE ONLY AT THE BECK AND CALL OF THOSE WHO OWN THE CAPITAL AND MEANS.  They are the great benefactors afterall, Medici for example, merchants who donate huge sums to the church, for their own purposes...

 

We know how desperately those in power will take measures to cling to their power.  How did the Western democracies ever implement the separation of church and state?

REVOLUTION - FIRST THE RELATIVELY MINOR US OVERTHROW OF THE BRITISH, FOLLWED BY THE TRULY MAGNIFICENT FRENCH REVOLUTION...THE LAST TIME PEOPLE HAD THE SAME MILITARY MEANS AS THE GOVERNMENT, but that's another story...the despotic and inbred royals and religious could not control the will of the people, as long as the people were as well armed as their own troops...

 

Although not a guarantee, are not non-secular Arab governments pre-requisite to a peaceful middle east?  How will it come about?  Does it matter?

It matters plenty.  MOST MUSLIMS JUST WANT TO HAVE A PEACEFUL PLACE TO RAISE THEIR KIDS, HOW SURPRISING, YES, THEY ARE HUMAN.

 

Don't be taken in by the koolaid of neocons.

 

Extreme Muslim Radicalism is a very small number of humans...

 

 

More comments please.

sURE.

 

1. TERRORISM CANNOT BE FOUGHT WITH MILITARY MEANS.  TERRORISM IS A TACTIC, IT ISN'T DETERED BY WAR.

2. THE NEOCONS REDEFINED WHAT THEY CONSIDERED TERRORISM, IN ORDER TO HAVE A MILITARY RESPONSE.

3.  fOLLOW THE MONEY.  OIL IS UP, DEFENSE IS UP...HELLO~

 

Yet, after a trillion dollars of Iraq/Afghan expenditure we are less safe. 

 

How very interesting.  They have used a few deranged survivors of the Crusades - Osama Bin Laden and his Saudi funders who also support the Madrassas...to terrify the American people to unending war.

 

Welcome John McCain, his lobbyists and the entire Military Industrial Complex...

 

Don't you think, if we spent 1,000,000,000,000 on software and hardware and satellites we could have information in a palatable form delivered world wide for everyone (10 times over).

 

(there are 6.8 billion people, we'd spend $130 per person (not everyone needs hardware) and it would be enough....)

 

How about, along the way, we spent part for Potable water for the millions who have none, and condoms for the women to control their fertility, and then, maybe, we'll be able to introduce the concepts necessary for continued human occupation of the planet.

 

Best,

Lloyd

-
Cheers,

Frish

An erudite exchange...

(I'm off for a 10 day vacation in San Diego, enjoy this and please do write/call if you feel the inclination!)

 

Les Knight is the originator of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (We're VeHEMenT about population reduction!)

 

He gets interviewed fairly regularly, and recently was on the radio with some twit in Texas named Alex something (I don't want to give Alex any advertising)...

 

Here's Les' response to one of Alex's fans, in reaction to hearing he ought not procreate!

 

He  begins this post by warning we Volunteers (those of us who have chosen not to have children) that some of us post pretty depressing stuff, like the story last week about a family with 18 children (who happen to be part of a Christian Sect that is going to repopulate the white world or some such)...So, here's Les' means of cheering us up!

Posted by: "Les U. Knight" les@vhemt.org   lesuknight

Sun May 18, 2008 4:26 pm (PDT)

Some here have mentioned that they get depressed by some postings,
and especially links to extreme natalist sites. So, I thought I'd
give warning on this one. I think messages like this are very funny:

"Just listened to you on Alex's show...what a fucking inarticulate
fuck are you!!! "

Maybe he could coach me on how to become articulate.

Les