Friday, September 26, 2008
The Pastor responds to Frish and Frish's response.
David:
The very definition of faith (the religious kind, faith has several definitions) is belief that is not based on proof...you need no reason for faith, only the capability to "hope" something is true.
Does that make faith and reason mutually exclusive? Well, certainly on matters of belief in god it does, your belief in omni-god requires no reason whatsoever!
there are 11 different definitions of the word faith however, and you are mixing them up in your note back to me!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
Interesting that you know what "god intends"...just by reading a book written by men...
What about all the "other" gods that are historic or being worshiped around the planet? Odin, Zeus, Krishna? Why aren't they the god(s) you ought be listening to?
Do I "operate" out of a "scientific materialist worldview"?
You and I both operate thanks to our chemistry. When our chemistry ceases to operate, so do we. We die.
I am a Bright. As a Bright I reject the supernatural and superstitious and mystical and base my ethics and actions on a naturalistic worldview.
That's what we see around us. That's what we can prove via scientific method, a means to test hypothesis and gain knowledge.
"Saying god exists is as rational as saying other people have minds"? NOT!
We share reality, I accept the fact you have a mind (sure, "I take the fact you have a mind on faith" but that's not the same definition of the word faith as your faith in god...) and can demonstrate I have one, that's how I'm typing and reading. I cannot read your mind, nor does your consciousness exhibit any impact upon the world that is not associated with your physicality (that is, you cannot "will something to happen at a distance" (i.e. prayer doesn't do anything for example). You must make things happen by touching them for example, you cannot move the pencil across the desk by thinking about it!
Please explain what you mean that all pre-suppositions begin with faith.
I suggest you are speaking of a different definition of the word faith than you use when describing your faith in god. (Just like I said in the prior paragraph!)
We share reality. I have "faith" that your reality and mine are similar, for the most part, even if you choose to include supernatural elements that are not provable as being in existence, and that I proved cannot exist in the universe we share (you didn't say anything to respond to my disproof of omni-god by the way, hummm, wonder why! My guess is that no one has prepped you for this argument, and that's not surprising, since it is my argument, and not one generally known in the philosophical world...so you have no one to fall back on to deny what I stated, sorry about that! I'm original, and my argument regards "what particle holds the thoughts of god" is also unassailable...).
We exhibit this shared reality through words.
That's how our brains/minds connect/understand each other.
No faith involved so far, eh, except faith that our defintions of words mean similar things.
If you wish to re-define god to be everything we don't already know, then yes, I could agree with that definition of god. By that definition, god is diminished a little bit everyday, as we learn more about reality that surrounds us. So what?
The Omni-god is not real, cannot exist in this universe, and is not necessary for any function whatsoever!
Is it possible that god exists? I could wave a wand and stop all war, but, you'd pretty much discount that as so improbable as to be impossible. Same as my knowledge of what you call god, so improbable it is essentially impossible.
Have you read and understood the Old Testament, and god's first commandment?
"Have no other gods before me."
First, god admits that there are other gods, so much for monotheism altogether!
Second, he commands us to have none, before having him.
I take him literally, and will continue to have none before having him.
Yes, I get the joke, hope you do too, the point being that the bible is so fraught with examples of things that can be ambiguously interpreted that it is unstable at best, misleading for certain, and a really bad means to determine truth. Why are there 20,000+ Christian Sects? They all interpret the "infallible word of god" differently!
Does your church "stone" people for biblical infractions as is stated in the bible?
How many of the 10 commandments are actually law today? They were all stoning offenses in their time, guess what, culture/society moved on, and now murder, theft and perjury are the only ones left!
Frish
The very definition of faith (the religious kind, faith has several definitions) is belief that is not based on proof...you need no reason for faith, only the capability to "hope" something is true.
Does that make faith and reason mutually exclusive? Well, certainly on matters of belief in god it does, your belief in omni-god requires no reason whatsoever!
there are 11 different definitions of the word faith however, and you are mixing them up in your note back to me!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
Interesting that you know what "god intends"...just by reading a book written by men...
What about all the "other" gods that are historic or being worshiped around the planet? Odin, Zeus, Krishna? Why aren't they the god(s) you ought be listening to?
Do I "operate" out of a "scientific materialist worldview"?
You and I both operate thanks to our chemistry. When our chemistry ceases to operate, so do we. We die.
I am a Bright. As a Bright I reject the supernatural and superstitious and mystical and base my ethics and actions on a naturalistic worldview.
That's what we see around us. That's what we can prove via scientific method, a means to test hypothesis and gain knowledge.
"Saying god exists is as rational as saying other people have minds"? NOT!
We share reality, I accept the fact you have a mind (sure, "I take the fact you have a mind on faith" but that's not the same definition of the word faith as your faith in god...) and can demonstrate I have one, that's how I'm typing and reading. I cannot read your mind, nor does your consciousness exhibit any impact upon the world that is not associated with your physicality (that is, you cannot "will something to happen at a distance" (i.e. prayer doesn't do anything for example). You must make things happen by touching them for example, you cannot move the pencil across the desk by thinking about it!
Please explain what you mean that all pre-suppositions begin with faith.
I suggest you are speaking of a different definition of the word faith than you use when describing your faith in god. (Just like I said in the prior paragraph!)
We share reality. I have "faith" that your reality and mine are similar, for the most part, even if you choose to include supernatural elements that are not provable as being in existence, and that I proved cannot exist in the universe we share (you didn't say anything to respond to my disproof of omni-god by the way, hummm, wonder why! My guess is that no one has prepped you for this argument, and that's not surprising, since it is my argument, and not one generally known in the philosophical world...so you have no one to fall back on to deny what I stated, sorry about that! I'm original, and my argument regards "what particle holds the thoughts of god" is also unassailable...).
We exhibit this shared reality through words.
That's how our brains/minds connect/understand each other.
No faith involved so far, eh, except faith that our defintions of words mean similar things.
If you wish to re-define god to be everything we don't already know, then yes, I could agree with that definition of god. By that definition, god is diminished a little bit everyday, as we learn more about reality that surrounds us. So what?
The Omni-god is not real, cannot exist in this universe, and is not necessary for any function whatsoever!
Is it possible that god exists? I could wave a wand and stop all war, but, you'd pretty much discount that as so improbable as to be impossible. Same as my knowledge of what you call god, so improbable it is essentially impossible.
Have you read and understood the Old Testament, and god's first commandment?
"Have no other gods before me."
First, god admits that there are other gods, so much for monotheism altogether!
Second, he commands us to have none, before having him.
I take him literally, and will continue to have none before having him.
Yes, I get the joke, hope you do too, the point being that the bible is so fraught with examples of things that can be ambiguously interpreted that it is unstable at best, misleading for certain, and a really bad means to determine truth. Why are there 20,000+ Christian Sects? They all interpret the "infallible word of god" differently!
Does your church "stone" people for biblical infractions as is stated in the bible?
How many of the 10 commandments are actually law today? They were all stoning offenses in their time, guess what, culture/society moved on, and now murder, theft and perjury are the only ones left!
Frish
On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Burke Community Bible Church <bcbc@directus.net> wrote:
Dear Michael,Thank you for responding to the article. You are suggesting that reason and faith are mutually exclusive. I would suggest to you that God intends for us to fully employ our intellects alongside of our faith. The great commandment encourages Christians to love the Lord with all their heart, mind, soul and strength.
Do you operate out of a scientific materialist worldview?
If you only believe in physical phenomenon and a material universe, then may I ask you this,Do you believe that other people have minds? Is this rational? Scholar Alvin Plantinga argues that saying God exists is as rational as saying other people have minds. Both philosophical conclusions are logical in the same way. Since all presuppositions begin with faith, God is as rational as any other first premise.
One other question. Do you claim to possess all knowledge? If you are intellectually honest you would have say no. So is it possible that in the realm of which you have no knowledge that God could exist?David----- Original Message -----Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:24 PMSubject: a response to your "Atheist....really!" article, from a real atheist!To David Doster, Pastor:
I responded to your article http://www2.morganton.com/content/2008/sep/25/atheist-really/#comments
because I'm Fearless Leader of the LA Brights, and part of our mandate is to respond to articles such as yours.
My response follows:
1. The definition of faith - belief without reason.
Therefore, the "faithful" and atheists can agree: "No reason for god(s)"2. Disproving the idea of an omni-present, omni-potent, omni-temporal, omni-xxx god is simple.
To do what that god is said to be able to do is to defy the laws of the known universe. That "god" must be able to operate at greater than light speed.
"He" is also supposed to have purpose. Therefore, "he" must think and be "an entity".
For information to exist, the information that makes up this "entity", it must have a physical substrate upon which to exist.
Since no particle exists that operates faster than light in our universe, what holds the thoughts of god?
God cannot exist.
Easy to prove, although it does depend on what YOUR definition of god is.
I'd ask the preacher, and Mr. Colson, how they can prove god does exist, since they claim "he" does...
They cannot.
If you synthesize all the best philosophy and theological work on what god is and how "he" operates, you are left with "God works in mysterious ways".
Now, I know that nothing like god(s) can or even need exist.
I also know that most people seek a higher power.
That seeking is due to evolutionary and excellent survival behaviors from our distant past.
The "need to seek" is what religions of the world prey upon, to get more people into the tent.
There is no soul
there is no god(s)
there is no afterlife
there is only our own chemistry
there is no shared cosmic consciousnessHowever, most don't believe that, since they are born with "a need to seek".
Enjoy.
I cannot convince you, even with the most rational and logical and scientific argument (such as the one presented above).
That's because most of you don't have freewill in this matter.
Enjoy it.
We are born moral, and our conscience is culturally determined.
Religion and god have absolutely NOTHING to do with it, but religion would like to take credit for it.
Enjoy.
--
That was the comment I left below your article, happy to "test your faith" further if you care to correspond.Cheers,
Frish
Fearless Leader, LA Brights
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