Regarding reactions to my Holocaust Deniers post...

(LES, WROTE THE FOLLOWING AND THEN DECIDED IT would JUST INITIATE A FLAME WAR SO I DECIDED NOT TO SENT TO THE GROUP LISTS...BUT HAD TO SHARE SO HERE YOU GO!)

I am so glad my recent thread "Holocaust Deniers" concerning MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE regards not having children caused such a great number of reactions.

The Holocaust to which I referred is the only Holocaust that is capitalized...but all of the events that subsequent posters referred to certainly and simply reinforce my decision not to have children (a decision I made in 1962).  

And no one even mentioned the HUTU-TUTSI CONFLICT  or Pol Pot...

However, and I'm rather disturbed by this...

"I'd have to add to the voices here pointing out that the horror of attempted
genocide continues to this very moment, most notably in Occupied Palestine."

"Occupied Palestine" is what is known by all those who live by the rule of law as the sovereign nation of Israel.  How that came to be certainly is a subject of great debate actually, but, it is clear the Israel is a nation recognized by the overwhelming majority of other nations, and has a seat in the United Nations.

Are the Israeli's doing the "right" thing, to make the lives of those in Gaza and the West Bank uncomfortable/impossible/and or deadly?  Do they react to attacks in ways that are contrary to the "law of war"?  Probably they do...however, they also are continuing to have rockets and suicide bombings and other inappropriate and violent actions taken against Israel by those in the affected areas...and they are surrounded by 100's of millions of people living under governments that choose not to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. 

However, there is NO genocide proceeding there.  If the Israeli's really were killing Palestinians as the Nazis killed Jews there would not be any Palestinians left.

Another poster tried to equate the Dresden fire bombing with "genocide" once again totally off the mark..

This may well be a heinous war crime as Dresden was in no way a military target and hundreds of thousands of  Civilian Germans were destroyed.  (See Slaughterhouse 5, Kurt Vonnegut).

Hey, there is evidence that the Japanese were ready to surrender BEFORE the atomic bomb drops, which also are a valid subject for those who know about the rules of war.

PLEASE NOTE AND BEFORE YOU TRY TO COMPARE OTHER CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY WITH THE HOLOCAUST...

THE ENTIRE NAZI MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX WAS CREATED AND FOCUSED WITH A PRIMARY GOAL TO ERADICATE JEWS FROM THE WORLD.  PERIOD.

See "The War Against the Jews" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Against_the_Jews

as one well researched tome on the topic.

Although I am Jewish by heritage, I am not a Zionist, far from it.  I am the Fearless Leader Emeritus of the Los Angeles Brights, and therefore accept no supernatural concepts as anything more than fairy tales.  Life is the inevitable outcome of the chemistry of the Earth...http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/2009/3/the-origin-of-life/1 and there is no such thing as an "afterlife".  

However, I know better than to argue this with those who do yearn for an afterlife...and choose to believe that such a thing can/does exist...

I am not an Israeli apologist either...the Palestinians who were displaced have valid grievances against the Israelis and those ought to be adjudicated.  And, the Palestinians ought to recognize the state of Israel, and they all ought to attempt to reduce the violence in that part of the world...

To "equate" what is happening in the Gaza and West Bank with what the Nazi's were up to is so far off the mark that those who espouse such views "are beyond the reach of reason"...as I suggested regards those who deny the Holocaust.

Just had to rant...and am more happy everyday that none of my kids can blame me for the rapidly retreating Glaciers around the world, which will result in the Death Of Billions...sooner than almost anyone even imagines...

-- 

Cheers,

Frish

Holocaust Deniers

Got a pretty horrendous email today from a friend who felt the need to share pics of the holocaust with me "so we shouldn't forget".

Just another reason I didn't have children...

1. Partly because I had to see those pictures in religious school on Saturdays for 10 years.

2. Partly because if people could do those things to other people I didn't want to put my kids at the risk of it happening to them.

Those who deny the Holocaust are beyond reach of reason.

...much like those who believe in god...

To be Polanski-ed!

I've shared the latest of my short stories here, with the working title of "Pranks by Boys".

Enjoy and let me know if you think they might try to Polanski me...

Hey, did I just coin a term?  or is "to be Polanski-ed" already twittered around the world?

Always nice to print for you...

MY CUSTOMERS LOVE ME...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Troy
Date: Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Subject: RE: Always nice to print for you...
TO: FRISH

Hi –

Thank you so much for all of your help.  As you saw this year, things were a little hectic, especially with our communication.

I received the booklets and was impressed with the service that I am accustomed to receiving through working with you.

I look forward to the next time.

Troy

From: Frish 
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 11:19 AM
To: Troy
Subject: Always nice to print for you...

 

Troy:

I know we were down to the wire on this last one…

And, our last conversation was so focused on how much time we had to get it done!!!

 

I suspect all turned out well, and I thank you for the business…

 

Frish

 

News we'd probably prefer not to know...

Quantimetrix Corporation Adds Additional Urine Reagent Strip Values to its Urine Dipstick Controls

Sponsor Stu for The Military Religious Freedom Foundation!

To those copied...my friend Stuart Bechman is completing his first year as president of the board of Atheist Alliance International.  Last Tuesday he bowled as a sponsorship event.

So, it's too late to buy a cents/dollars per pin felled option, but never too late to contribute!

 

Stuart:

I tried to put you at your goal, but perhaps my math isn't so good...

I copied this from the website after it registered my contribution....

Fundraising target:	$1,000
So far I have raised:	$999.50

I'm still laughing.

 

Frish

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Stuart Bechman  

Sponsor Me for MRFF's Bowl-For-Our-Troops Fundraiser!  Dear Frish, I am writing to you because I know you care about church-state separation in this country, and that you are shocked and dismayed at how our US military has become the overseas proselytizing arm of the Christian Right over the past twenty years.   Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) is the prominent organization in the United States that is standing up to this abuse of our military and demanding a restoration of that institution to upholding the First Amendment values that were the foundation of our Constitution and our Republic.   But MRFF can't carry out its great work without your support.  MRFF is holding a Bowl-For-Our-Troops Fundraiser THIS COMING TUESDAY, September 22, at various venues across the country.  In southern California, that event is happening at the JEWEL CITY BOWL in Glendale, California from 7-10pm.  I will be joining MIkey, his wife Bonnie, and actor and activist Ed Asner in raising money for Mikey and his foundation to protect our First Amendment rights.   We're looking for additional bowlers and sponsors for this event.  If you can join us, we ask that you find ten friends who will sponsor you at $0.06 per pin or $12 per game.  If you can't join us but want to support me as I Bowl for the Troops, I ask that you sign up at my FirstGiving webpage:   http://www.firstgiving.com/stuartbechman   Help me raise a minimum of $300 for the MRFF this coming Tuesday.   You can find out more details about this event at: http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/bowling/ Help us restore our military to the proud professional force it once was! Upcoming Events MRFF Bowl For The Troops Fundraiser Jewel City Bowl 135 S Glendale Ave. Glendale, CA 91205 Thanks for Your Sponsorship! See You in the Lanes!  -Stuart

ding dong schoolyard - Snippets from Traffic School!

In Minnesota, when I learned how to drive, traffic school was available as a remedy for some traffic infractions, including speeding...it was known as "ding-dong" school.  The following are from an actual online "ding-dong" school!

The split second before your head hits the windshield isn't the time to remember to fix that malfunctioning safety belt. 
----------

The key is to drive defensively, which means defending yourself as you drive.

----------

Scan ahead and think ahead for hazards or potential hazards. By looking ahead, you allow yourself the opportunity to see hazards early. 

----------PlanAHEAD's Motto!  (inside joke, shareholders only!)

Glass bottles, nails, and other sharp items can be detrimental to your tires.

----------wins the "duh" or perhaps the Homer Simpson "D'oh!" Award...

Backing up is definitely not the time to mistakenly hit the throttle.

--------too bad the D'oh Award's been awarded!

• When the level reaches beyond this, to 0.25 and 0.40, you'd better call an ambulance because the average person will be in a coma.
   
• Levels of 0.45 and up, you'd better call the police; the average person will be dead. 

'nuff said...

Everyone else is driving along a freeway at 55 mph while the person on LSD is drifting along a beautiful street lined with flowers in full bloom.

(Well, if "everyone else" is on the freeway, the Acid Head is only being safe, on that flowery residential street!)

The existence of bicyclists on the road is cause for concern when you are driving. As with pedestrians, they can be seriously injured in any impact with a vehicle.

------------

Congratulations!

You passed the final exam!

You got 48 questions correct.     

What kind of humanist are you?

What kind of humanist are you?

Hedonistic Humanist

You are one of life's enjoyers, determined to get the most you can out of your brief spell on this glorious planet. What first attracted you to atheism was the prospect of liberation from the Ten Commandments, few of which are compatible with a life of pleasure. You play hard and work quite hard, have a strong sense of loyalty and a relaxed but consistent approach to your philosophy. You can't see the point of abstract principles and probably wouldn't lay down your life for a concept, though you might for a friend. Something of a champagne humanist, you admire George Bernard Shaw for his cheerful agnosticism and pursuit of sensual rewards, and your Hollywood hero is Marlon Brando, who was beautiful (for a while), irascible and aimed for goodness in his own tortured way. You adored the humanist London bus slogan ("There's probably no God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life") and are delighted that wild young comedians like Stewart Lee, Christina Martin and Ricky Gervais share your full-blooded rejection of religion. Sometimes you might be tempted to allow your own pleasures to take precedence over your ethics. But everyone is striving for that elusive balance between the good and the happy life. You'd probably better open another bottle and agree that for you there's no contest.

A most frightening paragraph...

From this article:

http://www.economist.com/sciencetechnology/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14350129

This is the "offending" paragraph:

"So far Dr Ausubel and his colleagues have managed to test around 37,000 compounds using their new method, and they have found 28 that have antibiotic properties. Their most exciting discovery is that some of these substances work in completely different ways from existing antibiotics. That means entirely new types of resistance mechanism would have to evolve in order for bacteria to escape their effects."

I wonder who can describe and quantify the probable and the unintended consequences of having supposed "dominion" over bacteria...

The nightmare scenario:  Some "lowly" bacterium that had fixed (insert trace mineral here) into the food chain no longer exists;  It didn't have a defense to some antibiotic; that arrived, without anyone's intention, nor invitation; downstream from the water treatment plant; that doesn't treat the new pharmaceuticals; that now travel without resistance; from toilet to bay; and then things got bad.

Frish

Another in my collection

Leaner with little to no space between it and the curb.

Here's my most probable "disease"

Benign Positional Vertigo

Frish's abstract of the research on web: "the most common form of vertigo, goes away in a few days or weeks, and may or may not recur."

I made a referral...

Client needs a 72 page trade show delegate trade book front to back designed and laid out by Friday 8/28.

Roy is one of the three designers I shared with my client.

Client's reaction:  "Roy was an idiot primadonna who likes to chase away work."

From a dating site...Q&A

The one thing Christie is most passionate about:

• Various charities, animals esp.dogs, theater, traveling

                                        and, especially, not reading the question before answering.

Marko Evening - quick video

August 14, 2009

Universal City Walk - free concert -  "Martha and the Motels"

Martha is singing.

Marko is directly in front of Martha, (the guy with the grey Jew-fro under the neon guitar!)

He asked for her pick, and obtained it, to add to his guitar pick collection!

A Marko Evening

Here are the results of a recent Friday Evening with Marko
1. LACMA for jazz event (woman in shorts singing, was very impressive)
2. The Broad Museum for the House Crashing Into House sculpture Take No Pictures
3. A quick run through LACMA<
(Smiling guy is Marko)
4. Out to Universal - Powder was the first group and they did performance art and rocked out
Pink hair, trapeze act and other performance art, really good rock and roll all at once.
5. The second group was a Rock band from the 70s, still playing the odd venue! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_(band)

Overall, a very nice Marko evening, as they go...

Drinking: Less than usual, none actually
Traffic incident: There was none! No traffic that is!!!

Is the recession over, I ask again?

Here's a photo of part of a job I have in the shop at the moment.

You are looking at a few pallet loads of paper, that already has been printed upon, and die cut (but only "die kissed" so the "waste" paper still needs to be removed, during the cutting process, so the sheets are still rectangular).  The tallest stacks are about 5000 sheets apiece, each sheet has 16 final pages when they're cut out.  So, that's 80,000 pages of paper on a pallet.  The job requires about 5 MILLION final pages...that's a lot o' pallets!

This particular job is 44 pages (40 pages plus cover) and there are 11 different versions.

We have already completed 6 versions that were 36 pages plus cover.

In total, we'll be manufacturing about 130,000 of these catalogs...

I love bio-tech firms...

2009's answer to the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band

http://www.circusnews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2447

Great article, and so true...the picture there?  Now, PICTURE A THIRD WOMAN STANDING ON THE UPSIDE DOWN GIRL'S UPPER LEGS...

Powder is the group.  Let's see what I can find in a hurry here:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=242120

Wow, from 3 years ago, and still going strong.  Most muscular woman I've ever seen.  She was ripped, when singing and when performing...

Lumps o' coal

The world and how it's going

Go to this site. http://www.breathingearth.net/  Run your cursor over the map.  Scroll down to learn more.

No other population of anything living, ever in the history of the planet, has had our out of balance birth vs. death ratio.

Is the worst of the recession over??? ... people shopping, tourists gawking...

Maybe the recession is lessening, here are two quick, informal and unofficial indicators.

I live in West Hollywood, "Beverly Hills Adjacent" (some Real Estate Marketer's Dream).  

Experienced two similar incidents today...

INCIDENT ONE: Filled up the car with gas at Olympic and Robertson.

(BTW, this is a really cool looking gas station with fairly inexpensive gas. It is all stainless steel sculptural pillars and roof, keeping the Sun shaded over the highest tech pumps imaginable. They even dispense moist towels and "plantable postcards" (for free) next to the pumps!).

Finished gassing up, I pull onto Robertson, and waited at the red light, facing north. A very large foreign model rather new SUV pulls up along side, and a 30 something woman with designer sunglasses, well quaffed hair and make up, lowered her window and asked: "Where are the shops on Robertson?"

I could see a rather intent heavy set and mustachioed husband driving, and a 5-7 year old daughter in the back...the car dwarfed all of them and I had to look up to speak with her.

I asked, since there are shops all along Robertson after all, "You mean the fancy ones?".

She said, "Yes, the fancy ones!", in a heavy Middle Eastern accent.

"Just about a mile or less ahead" redundantly pointing in the appropriate direction.

She thanked me, the window rose to contain the cool air inside, and they proceeded north when the light changed...I watched the two females disembark a few moments later at the appropriate portion of Robertson...Dad obviously assigned the mission to park the Urban Assault Vehicle.

INCIDENT TWO:

Later in the day, taking my "frisbee walk" (I use Beverly Hills as my Frisbee golf course), I was asked, by two young tourists in a small beat up car, "Where is Rodeo Dr.?"

I let them know it was 5 or so blocks straight ahead, again pointing redundantly in the appropriate direction, and added, "Take a left to get into the craziness".

The male driver laughed out loud, and his female passenger sat back, without a smile.

Got the feeling the visit to Rodeo (that's Row Day Oh, not Row Dee Oh...an entirely different street about 3 miles away, near a Target not a Tiffany's (LOL)) was more her idea than his, and they gave the appearance that they'd have trouble paying for the parking meter on Rodeo, but hey, I felt just like the Boy Scout (without the "god-fearing homophobia") that I am!

It never ceases to astound that strangers are quite comfortable asking me things...regardless of where I am in the world.

The Moon and some Haiku

I didn't start talking until many months after what was deemed "normal" at the time.

I was also being raised by my six-years older sister.  I'm sure she did her share of translating my oral and physical communication, so I had less motivation to have my vocalizations be generally recognizable.

At around age 3, when I did start talking, I spoke in complete sentences, and, I started with:

"I want to be the first boy on the moon"  (Circa early 1958)

Any vocal deficiencies I appeared to suffer from have given way to my capability to share a truly  exquisite aural experience.

People have told me

My voice is enchanting...

Hope I satisfy.

------------------------

On My Alternate Life

Exists only in

grey matter between my ears....

flows out my fingers...

Furries vs. Planties

One of my weirdest first dates was with a woman who confided, during a sushi dinner, that she was into "kink".

Not to seem put off, surprised, or otherwise intimidated, and, knowing there are many types of "kink", I asked if she was into "Plush" (by which I meant "Furry", as portrayed in the comic attached), which I would consider kinky but harmless...

No, she assured me her interest in me was that I was much bigger than she was and therefore could definitely inflict pain.

---Check Please---

Jimmy Carter - He's giving up religion for women!

To give the human friendly world even a paltry chance, this needs to happen everywhere soon...

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html?page=3

Frish

"Fearless Leader, L.A. BRIGHTS, Emeritus"

Population Non-Contributor - no one blames me

((Yes, I know that's funny.))

Mad Cow Disease, it may not be just from cows anymore!

"...according to the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease article, there are several reasons to be concerned about fish spreading mad cow to humans. "

http://www.naturalnews.com/026666_disease_farmed_fish_mad_cow.html    

I find hope in that someone is actually trying to do something proactive about a possible vector for BSE.

It's gerontological in provenance, but universal in consequence. 

I lived in the U.K. pre-Mad Cow culling of the beef livestock.  

Been 20 years, about enough time to exhibit symptoms...

I don't know about me and I expect my clone lacks prions.

...but, if it's not one thing, it's another (apologies to Gilda)

Cheers,

Frish

The last line can be "The Bottom Line".

Here's the literal "bottom line" from an AP story on Y!ahoo

"An Indian official told Clinton that India won't accept limits on its greenhouse gases."

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - all respect and credit to Walt Kelly for "Pogo's Observation".

From nearer the top of the article:

"The G-8 summit members in Italy agreed to limit the planet's average temperature rise to 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) above levels recorded 150 years ago."

They neglected to suggest how this could, or would be done, however.

Top UN climate expert faults G-8 goal without deed

By JOHN HEILPRIN, Associated Press Writer – Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:00 pm ET  (about 6.5 hrs ago, sorry I am not more current...)

My review, above, "turns the story on it's head" if you will.  Frish

File under "Book titles we thought we'd never see!"

I just like saying "Buttafuoco"...

From a Dr. Demento Fan Club Member (Since 1975) hope you enjoy this!

http://drdemento.com/games/mindtrick/

Bible based marriage. It's sacred.

Just what is a "normal practitioner of faith"?

Oh how true

Sign of the times...

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/06/from_the_kansas_city_star.php

Pat Condell - "Faith: Like a pet shop, giving away a rattlesnake with every bunny."

It is to laugh!

I was on the IBM site today, for other purposes altogether.

I decided to search on FRISHBERG to see if any trace of M.C., Nancy, or myself (all IBM employees) was in the world wide database for IBM.

Found the only Frishberg reference here!

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/4139.html

Way to go David.

Nature of Reality

See also

• Cognitive science
• Consciousness
• Epiphenomenalism
• Hempel's Dilemma
• Monism
• Ontological pluralism
• Phisical ontology
• Mary's Room
• Philosophy of mind
• Presentism
• Reductionism
• Supervenience
• Multiple realizability

from Craigslist Haiku Hotel 2009

the phantom < seraphimoon > 05/22 20:07:09

"Nonsense."
"Ridiculous."
"Fantastic"
"Absurd"
"Bosh," they chorused again and continued.
"We're not interested in making sense; it's not our job," scolded the first.

"Besides," explained the second, "one word is as good as another, so why not use them all?"

"Then you don't have to choose which one is right," advised the third.

"Besides," sighed the fourth, "if one is right, then ten are ten times right."

Not a Nigerian scam artist at least!

From: beijingbabe
Subject: hi Sent Date: 5/21/2009 7:11:59 PM

how are you !You look good !I am interested in you,I hope to know you.
I am a single Chinese girl without child, i am serious finding a soul hasband sothat build together a marriage .
I am a very upright , kindhearted , honest ,warm-hearted, understanding, easy-going, open-minded kind, considerate, compasionate, affectionate lady.
I would be happy to get acquainted with you ,I hope to hear from you .wish you a pleasant day!
Sincerely,
Pine

Life is very likely a natural (and inevitable!) outcome of geo-chemical processes.

I have opined that biology follows (as a natural consequence) from geology.

Here's some speculation that this is entirely so!

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/2009/3/the-origin-of-life/1

This is a bit "dense" but worthwhile.  Obviously scientific rigor must proceed, but it is fascinating regardless.
--
Cheers,

Frish

First every rock had a spirit, then there were families of gods, now only one seems to be around, so we're approaching truth!

The site name alone makes this url worth a peek...

http://www.peoplewhositinthedisabilityseatswhenimstandingonmycrutches.com/about/

and, an email address too!

manoncrutches@peoplewhositinthedisabilityseatswhenimstandingonmycrutches.com

Promises, Promises!

She said she would call
I sit near the phone feeling
like a wallflower...

I am not upset.
I anticipate NOTHING...
Expectations: Met!

"See ya", however you say it!

During online Bridge today, a novice Japanese woman let us know she had to go, so I sent "Sayanara" to the chat line.

She responded:   Saunala

Seeking girls with muscular calves: A Response to a Craiglisting

Girls with muscular calves $40/h (West LA)

---

Reply to: gigs-nhfsu-1269375@craigslist.org
Date: 2009-04-18, 9:24PM PDT

Seeking women 18 and up who possess extremely well developed and muscular calves, whether it be from dance, athletics, or just genetics. this is for a parts/physique modeling shoot in Los Angeles on Venice cross National.
Pay is $40/hour. If we shoot again, it goes up. I usually like to shoot several times with a model i like working with.
Feel free to send photos of calves in tiptoe to muscularcalves@live.com
No nudity/ no experience and a lot of fun!

• Location: West LA
• it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
• Compensation: $40/h

"The most pressing problem ever faced by humanity"

Personally, I couldn't agree more.  That's why I'm a volunteer. 

Glad scientists "get it".  Too bad about the general public...

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=12920125

Cheers,

Frish

Weirder than Real!

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=12990811

I'm rather skeptical.

The best poll on the net!

Getting an Erection in Hot Nude Yoga:
Stops me from coming to Class. I love getting an erection and celebrate my penis. Is very normal if and when it happens. I never get an erection so I do not worry. Why is anyone even talking about this in the first place.

Note from Frish:  Yes, there is a practice known as Hot Nude Yoga.  I have yet to go to a session.

Here are the results of the poll so far...

Getting an Erection in Hot Nude Yoga:
I love getting an erection and celebrate my penis.
894	44.2%
Is very normal if and when it happens.
693	34.3%
Stops me from coming to Class.
197	9.7%
Why is anyone even talking about this in the first place.
153	7.6%
I never get an erection so I do not worry.
84	4.2%

Number of Voters

:  2021

Typo Correction

There was a typo in the first copy of Rat Experiments that I sent.   "P"ver population instead of over population.  This file corrects it.  I need new glasses.  --  Bill

Genetically Modified: But will the pigs eat it?

Yes, but will the pigs eat it?  Build a better mousetrap and you still may fail...in a way he holds out hope for "democacy" over "commercial" in terms of whose interests are served.

 

"The GM food safety debate seems to have been initiated by the commercialization of GM crops and has since become more heated. This debate has important implications for the development of this new technology, which is viewed as a major approach in the fight against global hunger. Also, it is widely recognized that consumer acceptance will ultimately determine whether GM foods can survive and expand in the marketplace, and will conclude this debate to some extent, at least with regard to policymaking."

 

http://www.agbioforum.missouri.edu/v5n4/v5n4a02-zhong.htm

 

Zhong F., Marchant, M.A., Ding, Y., & Lu, K. (2002). GM foods: A Nanjing case study of Chinese consumers' awareness and potential attitudes. AgBioForum, 5(4), 136-144. Available on the World Wide Web: http://www.agbioforum.org

Suzies Apartment Listing 3-15

In this short want ad
future of city living
"apartment near beach"

salty waters rise
shorelines must accommodate
People need to move

When icey flows swell
such volumes of water
changes sea level

less water reaches
less green grass so more beaches
EvironMental

You have a case of humans!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6p8ut1Tnblg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6p8ut1Tnblg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/B419124white

Great to have clients, however self centered!

(From a MAJOR print buyer, today...)

Hi Frish,

We have a new brochure we are looking into.  Right now we are looking at four different options.  You may want to stop by so I can review the prototypes with me.

(Meeting tomorrow regardless!)

Octomom Joke(?)

Denny's is offering a new breakfast special:

You get fourteen eggs, no sausage, and the
person next to you pays your bill.

A defense of VHEMT, from an outsider's perspective!

Dear VHEMTers (and curious bystanders):

Your old pal Frish has been attacked by posters on a completely different blog, where he was explaining his  Volunteer status. 

Another poster, Chuck A, posted this most marvelous explanation of what is seen by some on that blog (it is of by and for atheists) to be my very own "irrational" or "hypocritical" stance, of living on with my life while denying life to any offspring, and espousing the view that humanity is doomed, regardless of any solution (that has yet to be) offered:

To weigh down a comment Frish made (excerpted below) with even more verbiage...

Humans aren't just individuals, we are highly social animals.

What we choose to define as either good or evil are - primarily, but not exclusively - both the product and the means by which we interact with our fellow humans.

Out of this ever-changing and never-ending struggle to balance our individual needs and desires with our need to remain a functional part of our social milieu(s), we develop ethics, morals, our sense of right and wrong.

Many societies have chosen over the millennia to ascribe their "codes" of right and wrong to the will of some sort of deity or deities. This (it is widely believed) lends greater weight to the value of the social code, and helps to regulate behavior and impose sanctions for violations of the code.

Atheists have - I would assume - realized that all such moral codes are in reality created by humans such as themselves, and no deities need apply for sponsorship of the values of their own as well as any other society on this planet, past, present or future.

To fully realize that WE have created our own codes of ethics and morality is NOT to negate the individual or group need for such codes. It is to realize that the responsibility for all such codes has always and will always be the responsibility of every individual, acting both individually and in concert with others.

In other words, WE all know that we have to act both for our own personal betterment and for the betterment of society. This need and this realization is "built into" us by some 3 million years of natural selection working on us to mould us into highly social, symbol creating/using par excellance, animals.

So it should not surprise anyone that someone who feels that humanity, en masse, is currently making so many behavioral mistakes that it will soon drive itself into extinction, will simultaneously feel the need to modify and control his own behavior so as to cause the least harm to others and to other life forms on the planet. After all, he could be wrong: humanity might survive despite the bad odds our moral individual beholds, and he wants humanity and/or the other earthly life forms to have the best possible chance for success.

Only an amoral person - or more accurately, a sociopath - which nearly all theists believe that all atheists truly are (whatever either group claims to "believe"), would use this pessimistic (or grimly realistic) vision for the future as personal license to do anything he wants to anyone/anything he wants, anytime he wants. Thoughtful atheists know they don't need the imaginary club of eternal damnation to behave in a socially responsible manner.

As someone recently paid to advertise on city buses (in England, I believe), "Just be good for goodness sake."
That's what it really boils down to.

yours,
Chuck A

At 07:58 PM 2/23/2009, frish wrote:

Because, dear Dima, we are moral creatures and almost all of us act morally (within our cultural teachings) almost all of the time.  God isn't necessary for that, and I, within what I know to be moral, won't act as you suggest either.

(Dima had suggested, that, if I'm right and we're all doomed, why not just ignore our carbon footprint and do whatever we wish.  I'm no hermit, but I also know that having no offspring is the best I can do for the rest of life, and it reduces the numbers who will suffer when the biosphere no longer supports our species.  That's my moral stance, as Chuck A has so beautifully amplified.  Frish)

Cop makes arrest after smelling perp's crack in bathroom!

ELKTON, Md. – The Cecil County Sheriff's Office said a deputy about to take a bathroom break at a gas station smelled crack cocaine and made a quick arrest. Police spokesman Lt. Bernard Chiominto said Deputy John Lines was waiting to use the bathroom Friday at a Wawa convenience store when he smelled crack cocaine from outside the bathroom.

Lines then saw a 27-year-old man come out of the bathroom. Chiominto said Lines went in the bathroom, saw drug paraphernalia and arrested the man, who police said had glassy eyes and dilated pupils.

Police said the man resisted arrest and was subdued using pepper spray. He was charged with assault, resisting arrest and possession of drug paraphernalia after police found drug paraphernalia in his pockets.

Yes, the cop's name is LINES.

Beware of Tree-Trashing Tots!

An article from the NZ Herald...I wrote to the author and mentioned vhemt. 
Perhaps she'll seek to interview someone in Auckland...

 

Deborah Coddington: Beware of the terrible tree-trashing tots

 

There comes a time when campaigners lose potential support from fence-sitters, doubters or sceptics because they go too far. We've seen it with people like John Minto and Father Gerry Burns. Well-intentioned ... More

 

Frish

Re: [atheists-614] How VHEMT and Atheism are congruent!

William, thanks for sharing, cheaper than a therapist, glad I could be of service.

I wrote a nice much LONGER response and the system managed to delete it. 

Please think about the following...it is simply our worldviews that are divergent, while we are both atheists (and are right to be so!), being right about humanities future doesn't really buy me much!

First, please note, it is a voluntary thing.  Not Genocide.  I simply am voluntarily not having offspring to reduce the numbers of humans who will inevitably be going extinct in the not very distant (150 years or less) future. 

This isn't what I WANT to happen, (nothing self hating about it!) just what I foresee happening, given every trajectory for every unsustainable human practice...medical, energy production, agriculture, fishing, forestry, etc. etc. etc.

I said that VHEMT is far more repugnant to far more people than Atheism.  Your note is prime evidence I was right about that!

Whether or not I'm an asshole is a matter of debate, one which I'd probably lose.

However, the output of my asshole and yours is killing estuaries and the ocean's nurseries all over the world, thanks for pointing out another non-sustainable practice (too much fertilizer) that is contributing to our demise.

I VEHEMENTLY disagree with your contention that causing "our environment to be adapted to us...is neither a good thing or a bad thing".  I understand the point you are trying to make, that many technologies can be used for good (explosives build roads and kill people, etc.) however, turns out this aspect of human nature is an unequivocal BAD THING and will lead directly to our demise.

Live long and die off.

Frish, who is not very frightening at all.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:06 PM, William <walgaru@gmail.com> wrote:

Honestly, you VHEMT people scare the shit out of me. Self-hating self-fulfilling genocide prophecies aside, any ideology which banks on denying the fundamental substance of human nature is not to be trusted. We are creatures who use tools. We are creatures who rather than adapting to our environment, cause our environment to be adapted to us. This is neither a good thing or a bad thing, it's powerful, and like all powerful things can either cause great good or great harm. We have to find the wisdom to use our adaptation to our benefit, which probably will look a lot like benefitting the earth ecosystem as a whole.

Regardless, I hope you assholes don't ever suggest this nonsense is synonymous with atheism, or you'll bring back the fun times of burning atheists at the stake.

William

How VHEMT and Atheism are congruent!

Chuck, thanks for the question about carrying capacity of Humans on Earth.  I'll attempt to answer, and to suggest why Atheists ought to care!  And, thanks for being a volunteer (if you have no children) or a supporter (if you have children but support the idea of VHEMT!).

Les Knight, the founder of the VHEMT movement and I agree that due to our very HUMAN NATURE, we are not going to stay within whatever artificial limit placed on our population.

Therefore, zero is the carrying capacity LONG TERM, per your question.

You may know that we're all, everyone of us, related to 200 or fewer individual humans who lived about 70,000 years ago, in East Africa.  That what the geneticists have found...

Therefore, even after a really big die-off, figure way less than 70,000 years and we're back to where we are today, since not everything we now know about leveraging technology to support human life (and destroy the rest of the biosphere) can be expected to be unlearned, regardless of how brutal it may be for many many years for those who survive.

There are numerous "carbon footprint" websites that suggest several millions of us (as many as 2 billion by one estimate) could live "in harmony" with the environment, if we were, as you suggest, careful.

If you want to be depressed, check this out:  http://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator1.html

Here are my results, I'm not proud...just glad to be childfree.

• Your footprint is 1.20 tonnes, (per month) which equates to 13.38 tonnes per year
• The average footprint for people in United States is 20.40 tonnes
• The average for the industrial nations is about 11 tonnes
• The average worldwide carbon footprint is about 4 tonnes
• The worldwide target to combat climate change is 2 tonn

I maintain that our reliance on technology (HUMAN CULTURE with a capital C) precludes any governor on our destructiveness, and it is part of our human nature, and therefore not easily changed without draconian measures, which are no more sustainable than our current "western" lifestyles...that's why the VOLUNTARY in the VHEMT is such a crucial element!

Each of us can decide to do the moral thing, and not breed.

Here's a neat synopsis of Earth Carrying Capacity, that does and doesn't answer your question!

http://mmcconeghy.com/students/supcarryingcapacity.html

Another site (http://www.dieoff.org/page174.htm) submits this conclusion:

"With a democratically determined population control policy that respects basic individual rights, with sound resource use policies, plus the support of science and technology to enhance energy supplies and protect the integrity of the environment, an optimum population of 2 billion for the Earth  can be achieved.  With a concerted effort, fundamental obligations to ensure the well-being of future generations can be attained within the 21st century.  Individuals will then be free from poverty and starvation and live in an environment capable of sustaining human life with dignity.  We must avoid letting humans numbers continue to increase to the limit of the Earth's natural resources and forcing natural forces to control our numbers by disease, malnutrition, and violent conflicts over resources."

If you think that sounds plausible, you may be the only one who does!  The whole point of VHMET is that the final sentence is impossible to achieve, and, the limits of Earth's resources are being reached, way sooner than anyone suspects, and, "natural forces" will do what they do and we won't be around REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO TO TRY TO DELAY OR DENY IT.

Technology has always "bailed us out" in the past.  Now Human Technology is not just overcoming natural boundaries, it is overwhelming natural systems.  So, those who maintain that more technology is the answer have a grand tradition behind them and NO FUTURE at all!

Therefore, don't have kids, so that fewer suffer at the end! 

The reason I submit this to this Atheist thread is that RELIGIOUSITY will attempt to thwart efforts to control population, as seen in the recent Economic Stimulus discussion of condoms...the "moral majority" are neither moral, nor the majority, but...they do control things way beyond their numbers or rationality would suggest they ought.

It is just as immoral as the position:  "Let's fight them there, so we won't fight them here!"  Since when is commiting war on someone else's territory (without provocation and by our own choice)  moral in any way shape or form?

Oh well, humans aren't particularly rational, as this group certainly knows in spades!

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Chuck A <webinfo49@att.net> wrote:

Frish,
That was a very interesting website.
I guess I was a VHEMT without ever having heard of them.   
www.vhemt.org

I didn't read every word on the site, but I looked around, read about half of it, and am still left with no answer to a question I've had for a long time.
Perhaps you have come across some answer(s) to this.

The question is: What is the long-term carrying capacity for humans on this planet? Assume that long term is a million years or longer, and that we were immediately reduced to this number, and stayed within 1% of this number "forever".
My guess is perhaps a billion or less, but I really don't have any evidence to back up that guess.

What do you think (or know) about this?
yours,
Chuck A

At 10:49 PM 2/15/2009, frish wrote:

How droll.  Is it fair that we pay taxes to kill people in Iraq, in an illegal war?  there are plenty of things we ought not subsidize but we do, and birth control, contraception, abortion are in the public interest, and so should be subsidized.

Condoms ought to be free with every happy meal.

Abortion has been shown (Freakonomics) to reduce crime.  Condoms are even cheaper.

Libertarians ought to realize (but won't) that VOLUNTARY Human Extinction is the only MORAL choice since it is the best way to reduce our population in the face of the coming "Armageddon" (sorry for the biblical reference, but it applies, in spades).

I am just sorry that any tax incentives still exist to support procreation.
Like tax credits for kids.
Like tax credits for big suvs that subsidize big families.

It is DEFINITELY in the government's interest (if we still have government by,of,for people) to subsidize birth control, abortion, sex ed and anything else that will reduce population.

But, my view is definitely far less "popular" than atheism.  And, I'm a "libertarian" too!

There is no "biological clock" only social forces and ignorance that keeps people procreating.

Oh well.  Live long and die off!

Dima, there are people starving right here in America.

But that's not the point.  The future is filled with starvation and a biosphere that CANNOT support human life, regardless of the "technology" we throw at it.  Our momentum and human nature will preclude solutions to the situation, and, we'll be extinct regardless of what we throw at the problem.  Oh well.

I don't suspect/expect any of you agree.  VHEMT is far less acceptable than atheism.

Frish, who is pleased every day that he's a volunteer!

Take a minute and read, it is a serious site...we're Vehement!

www.vhemt.org

The i-Phone - Choice of intellectuals!

http://arstechnica.com/software/news/2009/02/prior-fart-legal-stink-up-over-iphone-flatulence-apps.ars

Looking at greenhouse gas!

I cannot agree more..."out of sight, out of mind" is a significant contributor to complacency.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=11857654

Perhaps, some well placed "webcams" could turn increase awareness/consciousness...

Then, we have insane proposals that appear plausible on their face, but introduce myriad untold consequences as the video says: "What do we do with the gas that's captured?".

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=11857339

250,000 machines, probably as large as battleships, only to have millions of tons of "captured" CO2 sitting around, just like the nuclear waste from a power plant!

"Air Capture is no silver bullet!"

No, but not having kids is!

I greatly enjoy the "technological" answers to the problems that our "technological" culture has introduced. 

Let's keep doing what got us here in the first place (or is that the definition of insanity?) since it has worked so well for us so far!

Frish

A Miracle! The Dead Sister-In-Law Did It!

No one could write this stuff, only real life can capture the insanity displayed...

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=11876590

Frish

Science vs. Religion

Sure, he may be a hit man, but where did his nickname come from?

Internet Source 1. 
... Anthony "Tony Roach" Rampino, whose physical features led to his nickname...

Internet Source 2.
He was never inducted into the Mafia because of his heavy drug use. He reportedly earned the nickname 'The Roach' because he smoked every bit of a marijuana joint.

Frish says:
A confederate of John Gotti's, Tony "The Roach" has served 10 years for for selling a Kilo of Heroin to an undercover cop, and may gain his freedom if the Judge decides he can go with time served.  He's never been indicted for several suspected killings.

I believe source two as to his nickname but cannot confirm.

I don't do internet games...

Crazy Peanuts

Flick the peanuts at the squirrels.

http://www.playgames.deflaz.com/

Never played the game, or visited the website, but, I really liked the copy on this one.

 

I played real live pin ball machines, 30 years ago.

 

I saw the first pong games going into bowling alleys, but didn't find them engaging.

 

Since then, I have not played electronic games much.

 

Had a chance to interact with a Nintendo of some ilk on Friday last.

Liked the picture chat.

 

I do play bridge online, so I guess I do play electronic games. 

Not quite the same, although sometimes it does feel like a car chase or they are trying to shoot me!

Frish

On whose backs does the cost of man's natural "exuberance" land?

http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=nas1053_costofpollution
Frish